Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 039 (Official Version)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition from people across Canada. This particular petition comes from people from Alberta and it is calling on Parliament to support Bill C-458, An Act to amend the Canada Post Corporation Act (library materials), which will protect and support the library book rate and extend it to include audio-visual materials.

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Income Trusts

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Mr. Michael Savage (Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to present this income trust broken promise petition on behalf of a number of people across the country, a large number in western Canada, who remember the Prime Minister boasting about his apparent commitment to accountability when he said the greatest fraud is a promise not kept.

The petitioners would like to remind the Prime Minister that he promised never to tax income trusts, but he broke that promise by imposing a 31.5% punitive tax, which permanently wiped out $25 billion of the hard-earned retirement savings of Canadians, many of them seniors.

They therefore call upon the Conservative government to admit that the decision to tax income trusts was based on flawed methodology and incorrect assumptions, to apologize to those who were unfairly harmed and, finally, to repeal that punitive 31.5% tax on income trusts.

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Questions on the Order Paper

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Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

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The Speaker:

Is that agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

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Privilege

Alleged impediment in the discharge of a Member's duties

[Privilege]

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Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, on October 18, 2007, the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley rose on a matter of privilege relating to the designation of certain persons in his riding to serve the role of a quasi-member of Parliament instead of the elected member.

It raised an interesting issue because on January 11, 2008, during our break period, a constituent came to my office. I was there. The constituent asked about the serious issue of the policy of the government related to the importation of goods from countries such as China where there has been some problem in terms of health and safety.

We immediately contacted Service Canada to find out if it had the documentation on this issue that is very prevalent. It told us that we had to talk to Health Canada product safety.

My staff did contact Health Canada product safety and they were advised by Health Canada product safety that it would have to get back to them on that matter because there was some process to go through.

A phone call was received back from a different number totally. I have the name and phone number of the individual and I have personally talked to the person subsequently.

The question that was posed to my staff and subsequently to me was: “Is your member of Parliament a member of the opposition?” The Health Canada product safety representative was asking, with regard to my query, whether or not the member was a member of the opposition.

When I learned of this communication from my staff, I immediately contacted this person. I had an extensive conversation with the individual. I was told that there was a requirement for Health Canada product safety to fill out an MP response form which it receives from Ottawa. It must fill it out including quotations and extracts from the conversation with the member of Parliament or the member of Parliament's staff.

This matter goes to Ottawa so that Ottawa, wherever this little black hole may be in this government, it appears decides what can be told to a member of Parliament. It also wants to know specific details, I was told, to monitor our activities, so that it could be prepared should the matter ever come up in question period.

I want to refer you, Mr. Speaker, to page 87, House of Commons Procedure and Practice by Marleau and Montpetit, which quotes Speaker Bosley from May 6, 1985, in which he states:

It should go without saying that a Member of Parliament needs to perform his functions effectively and that anything tending to cause confusion as to a Member's identity creates the possibility of an impediment to the fulfilment of that Member's functions. Any action which impedes or tends to impede a Member in the discharge of his duties is a breach of privilege. There are ample citations and precedents that bear this out.

I further refer you, Mr. Speaker, to page 69 of the 21st edition of Erskine May, Treatise on the Law, Privileges, Proceedings and Usage of Parliament, where it says:

Each House also claims the right to punish as contempts actions which, while not breaches of any specific privilege, obstruct or impede it in the performance of its functions, or are offences against its authority or dignity, such as disobedience to its legitimate commands or libels upon itself, its members or its officers--

We have a duty, Mr. Speaker, to uphold the privileges and the rights of members of Parliament and to ensure that they have all of the tools available to them to serve the people who elected them.

In this particular regard, I do not consider this to be a partisan matter when we asked about matters such as product safety and we were making a legitimate inquiry. However, I was also told specifically by this person that if a constituent had called directly he or she would have been given the answer immediately, but if members of Parliament who are in opposition ask the question, we have to be sanitized in terms of what can be said to us.

This is outrageous. This is a breach of my privileges as a member to serve my constituents.

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I do not believe this is a matter simply to suggest that a member such as myself or any member who has these kinds of experiences with the government, which wants to somehow impede our ability to do our job, should raise it with procedure and House affairs.

This issue relates to each and every member of Parliament who is not a member of the government. Far too many people are impacted, and far too many members of this honourable place are impeded from doing their job in a responsible and a prompt fashion as is our duty.

Mr. Speaker, I therefore ask you to consider this clear breach of my privileges and the privileges of all members who are not members of the government. Should you find a prima facie case of a breach of my privileges and the privileges of other opposition members, I would be prepared to move the necessary motion.

[Translation]

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Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the question of privilege raised by the member for Mississauga South.

The Bloc Québécois has no reason to disbelieve what he has told us; the facts he shared seem to show that the machinery of government now distinguishes between elected members who are Conservatives and in power, and opposition members.

He described his experience, and I completely agree that this is a breach of his privileges as a member. He supported his question of privilege with quotes from House of Commons Procedure and Practice. For the benefit of Quebeckers and Canadians, I would like to read an excerpt from page 67, which states:

Thus, the House also claims the right to punish, as a contempt, any action which, though not a breach of a specific privilege, tends to obstruct or impede the House in the performance of its functions; obstructs or impedes any Member or Officer of the House in the discharge of their duties—

That is on page 67. In this case, it is quite clear that Health Canada's procedure discriminates against the member. In my opinion, for the past several months, if not the past several years, the government has been taking steps to impede the work of opposition members, and this can be seen in all sorts of situations.

Yesterday, a point of privilege was raised about the fact that the Minister of Foreign Affairs had not informed the House that Canada had stopped transferring Afghan prisoners to the Afghan authorities on November 5, I believe, even though this House had been told the opposite.

I also know that in many of our ridings, Conservative candidates are being presented as though they were already sitting members of Parliament. I would like to draw my colleagues' attention to the aerospace announcement made by the senator and Minister of Public Works and Government Services. He was present along with all the candidates for the island of Laval, even though there is no Conservative member in that area. The message was that if people voted for the right party next time, these ridings and the people in them would reap the benefits. I find this very damaging to democracy.

I would like to tell another anecdote that shows how this government behaves. Recently, a Conservative member was in Rivière-du-Loup along with our friend from Repentigny. Some seniors were protesting the Conservative government's failure to keep its promise to make retroactive guaranteed income supplement payments. The Conservative member implied that if the seniors voted for the right party next time, they could expect to receive the retroactive payments they are entitled to, which the Conservatives had promised.

In my opinion, this sort of behaviour is widespread. That is why the Bloc Québécois members take the events reported by the member for Mississauga South extremely seriously. We would like you to rule on this point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. With this attitude—in this case, we are talking about Health Canada, but there are other cases as well—the government and the whole government bureaucracy are truly impeding the work of opposition members, who form an essential part of democracy, even Canadian democracy.

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Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP):

First, Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise in support of the member for Mississauga South on his question of privilege. He is a very experienced and longstanding member of Parliament and I do not think that he raises this matter lightly today. He raises it with a very deep concern about the implications of that particular case and what it means not only for him and his constituents but for all opposition members in this House.

I am glad he referenced the situation that took place in Skeena—Bulkley Valley, which was held by the NDP and where there was a conscious and deliberate attempt and effort by the Conservative government to undermine the elected member in that riding and to sort of superimpose an unelected person who would become the spokesperson for the government on whatever the issues were. It was very offensive. I can tell members that the local community reacted immediately and very strongly.

Here we have another incident where clearly the principle that all members of the House are equal, which is a founding principle of our democracy in the House of Commons, is being undermined by what has taken place.

I do want to say that I believe very strongly that public servants in the civil service act in a very honourable way. When our office deals with various departments, whether it is Service Canada or whatever it might be, we find a level of professionalism and we find that individual public servants want to do their jobs in the best way possible and to carry out their role and recognize our role.

I want to be very clear that this is not any sort of negativity in terms of the public service. This is a political direction that has come through from the government and it is trying to make a differentiation between those who are government members and those who are opposition members.

Members of the NDP, who are very hard-working in serving the needs of our constituents, actually take that part of our job very seriously. A lot of people think that politics is just what they see in question period, but in actual fact most of us work in our ridings and deal with these individual issues, so our relationships with departments and individual staff members in those departments are very important to the work we do in providing service.

Therefore, it is most disturbing to hear that this took place and that there is a level of discrimination where there are two tiers of members, those who are government members and those who are not government members, and that we will get a different kind of service or a different level of information.

I do think that the member for Mississauga South has a serious complaint in terms of his privilege and the privilege of all of us as opposition members being violated, so I would support him in his submission today.

Mr. Speaker, I hope you would recognize that all members are equal and that this principle needs to be maintained, sustained and in no way undermined. We look to you, Mr. Speaker, to uphold that principle for all of us.

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Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I should initially point out, since there were several references to an earlier question of privilege regarding the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, that you ruled on that question of privilege, and I think quite correctly, that it was not a question of privilege and there was no undue harm done to the abilities of the member to do his job as a member of Parliament.

With respect to this current question of privilege raised by my hon. colleague, Mr. Speaker, I would ask, since this is the first time I have heard of this, if you could reserve your judgment and in fact hold this matter over until the minister responsible has an opportunity to respond. If you would do that, Mr. Speaker, I believe we would all be better served.

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The Speaker:

I thank the hon. members who have raised this matter, starting first with the hon. member for Mississauga South, then the hon. members for Joliette and Vancouver East, and then the parliamentary secretary to the goverment House leader.

I am quite happy to take the matter under advisement. I was going to anyway. I must say I was hoping that there would be some submission on this matter perhaps from the Minister of Health, or whoever is the responsible minister in this case, before a decision is rendered by the Chair. I am more than happy to acquiesce in the suggestion made by the parliamentary secretary. I will take the matter under advisement. I look forward to hearing further submissions on this at a later time and will then render a decision.

Government Orders

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[Translation]

Settlement of International Investment Disputes Act

The House resumed from January 28 consideration of the motion that Bill C-9, An Act to implement the Convention on the Settlement of Investment Disputes between States and Nationals of Other States (ICSID Convention), be read the third time and passed.

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Mrs. Vivian Barbot (Papineau, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, on May 15, 2007, I had the opportunity here in the House to talk about why the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-53, which is identical to Bill C-9, An Act to implement the Convention on the Settlement of Investment Disputes between States and Nationals of Other States (ICSID Convention). Today, therefore, I will talk about how international treaties are now typically drafted with no regard whatsoever for democracy.

I would like to begin by saying that the Bloc Québécois wants all treaties to go through the House of Commons. The current way of doing things completely disregards democracy. Bill S-5, which provides for the coming into force of tax conventions, shows how important international treaties are to our daily lives. These days, treaties are brought before Parliament only when they require enabling legislation.

In Canada, Parliament and parliamentarians play a minimal role in negotiating and ratifying international treaties. The federal executive controls all phases of the process. The executive is also responsible for what takes place in negotiations, which are, for the most part, secret. This secrecy is an important part of the federal government's negotiation strategy. Next to nothing, and sometimes nothing at all is disclosed before the parties sign an agreement in principle on the content and even the wording of the treaty. Even though the provinces are usually kept abreast of negotiations for trade agreements, they participate very little in the process and, with few exceptions, are totally excluded from the decision-making process.

Where international treaties are concerned, democracy is totally absent. There is no complete compilation of such treaties. Governments release them when and if they see fit, and people cannot be sure they are all being disclosed. The treaty section at the Department of Foreign Affairs does not even have a list of signed treaties to consult. The government is not required to table treaties in the House of Commons. It does not even have to inform the House or the public that it has signed or ratified treaties. The House does not get to approve treaties. The government can sign and ratify any treaty it wants without consulting the representatives of the people. At the very most, treaties requiring legislative changes are brought before Parliament before ratification.

In Quebec, since 2002, a vote in the National Assembly is required. Being in no way involved in the negotiation of treaties, the House of Commons cannot consult the public. It is therefore not surprising to see people increasingly expressing their opposition in the streets. In fact, there is no other place for them to be heard. The government is not required to consult the provinces either, even though it cannot implement treaties that concern areas of provincial jurisdiction and the provinces are not bound by the federal government's signature. It is totally absurd that no formal consultation mechanism is in place.

The government is preventing the provinces from being able to act internationally by controlling their international relations and by not allowing them to reach treaty-like agreements. This is unacceptable.

It used to be that international treaties governed relations between states and had little or no impact on how society functioned or on the lives and rights of citizens. At the time, it was acceptable for the government to unilaterally sign or ratify treaties.

Now, however, international treaties, especially trade agreements, affect the power of the state, the workings of society and the role of citizens. Furthermore, they often have an even greater impact than many bills. The Canadian treaty ratification process is not in line with this new reality. The people's representatives must be involved in decisions that affect the people they represent.

During the election campaign, the Conservatives promised to bring treaties before the House prior to ratifying them, but they still have not kept that promise. Recently, the government signed an investment protection agreement with Peru. This agreement is based on chapter 11 of NAFTA, which has been criticized by many. Yet the government concluded it without putting it to the House. When the House presses the government to honour its international commitments, as it has done in the case of the Kyoto protocol, the government does what it pleases, with no regard for the will of the people or the promise it made when it signed the treaty.

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As was the case when Bill S-5 was passed, the fact that Bill C-9 will be passed quickly is an opportunity to show the government that democracy is not something to be feared when concluding fair treaties. The government must honour its promise to submit to the elected representatives any treaties that it intends to ratify, as it is forced to do here today with the three tax treaties. Once it has ratified them, it must honour them, as we hope it will honour the tax treaties we are discussing here today, and the Kyoto protocol, which the House is pressing it to honour.

This failure to involve the representatives of the people is an anachronism. It is impossible to tell from the division of legislative powers provided in the Constitution Act, 1867 which level of government, federal or provincial, has authority to sign a treaty with a foreign government. No provision is made in the Canadian Constitution for a jurisdiction anything like external relations or international relations. This is understandable, however, because when the Constitution Act, 1867 was passed by the British Parliament in London, Canada was still a colony of the British Empire. In 1867, the British Parliament reserved for the British Crown the power to represent the Dominion of Canada internationally and to enter into treaties with foreign countries on its behalf.

Under section 132 of the Constitution Act, 1867, however, the federal government was given responsibility for implementing, in Canada, treaties entered into by the British Crown, where these were applicable to this country.

In 1931, pursuant to the Statute of Westminster, Canada, as well as several other dominions of the British Empire, acquired full independence and, along with it, the authority to act with all the attributes of a sovereign state on the international scene. It was then that the federal government acquired jurisdiction over external affairs. Considered a royal prerogative when the Constitution was written, this authority was transferred to the government which, as the sovereign's representative, exercises it alone and without involving Parliament.

Once the governor in council approves an agreement reached between Canada and a foreign country, no matter who negotiated the treaty, that agreement becomes an international treaty. The representatives of the people do not have a say in it because the federal government has simply inherited a royal prerogative dating back to the British Empire.

Parliament only becomes involved when the ratification of a treaty requires an enabling statute. Canadian legislation may have to be amended because of the treaty. The legislative implementation of these treaties is the only occasion when Parliament has a say in the entry into force of a treaty in Canada.

It should be pointed out that many treaties requiring the Canadian state to adopt specific standards are not presented to Parliament for the adoption of enabling legislation. In such cases, the government believes that the Canadian legislation already conforms to the international obligations adopted or that the subject of the treaty does not require the adoption of new legislative provisions.

Consequently, no amendments are made to existing laws nor is a new law adopted by Parliament. For example, Parliament did not adopt legislation to implement or approve the ratification of the International Convention on the Rights of the Child. In such cases, the treaty never goes before Parliament.

In short, Canada is less democratic today that in was in the 20's. In June 1926, Prime Minister King introduced a resolution that was unanimously adopted by the House of Commons. It read as follows:

Before Her Majesty's Canadian ministers recommend ratification of a treaty or convention involving Canada, Parliament's approval must be obtained.

In 1941, Mackenzie King reiterated his commitment to this formula:

With the exception of treaties of lesser importance or in cases of extreme urgency, the Senate and the House of Commons are invited to approve treaties, conventions and formal agreements before ratification by or on behalf of Canada.

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Over the years, approval by resolution has been sought less and less. During the cold war, the government dropped the convention of seeking Parliament's approval before signing treaties or engaging in military intervention on foreign soil.

The government even stopped tabling treaties in Parliament. Except for the Kyoto protocol, not one treaty has been approved by resolution since 1966—over 40 years ago—and that was the Auto Pact. As for Kyoto, the government has refused to honour it. So much for democracy.

Furthermore, Canada is less democratic than the rest of the industrialized world. Most other major industrialized democracies support greater involvement of their parliaments in ratifying treaties. For example, the constitutions of France, Germany, Denmark, Italy and the United States require legislative approval of some types of international agreements prior to ratification.

Some countries that share constitutional traditions with Canada have tried to enshrine their parliament's role in examining treaties.

In the United Kingdom, a convention established in the 1920s, the Ponsonby Rule, requires the tabling of international agreements in both Houses of Parliament at least 21 days before they are to be ratified. This gives parliamentarians the opportunity to debate them before the government ratifies them, even though these debates are not binding. This kind of thing does not exist in Canada.

More recently, in 1996, Australia changed its procedure for concluding treaties. Under this procedure, treaties must be tabled in parliament at least 15 sitting days before any binding decision is made by the executive branch; a national interest analysis of the expected impact of the treaty obligations must be done, for each treaty, and tabled in parliament; a standing joint committee on treaties must be established to examine potential treaties and report on them. There is nothing of the sort in Canada.

As usual, Canada trails Quebec.

In Canada, the provinces pass laws in their constitutional fields of jurisdiction. As the British Privy Council ruled in 1937 in the labour conventions case, the provinces' legislative authority also extends to the implementation of international treaties.

As soon as a treaty or part of a treaty involves a provincial jurisdiction, the provisions in question can be implemented only by the provinces. Since 1964, Quebec has concluded some 550 international agreements involving many fields of jurisdiction for which it has full or partial responsibility, such as culture, economic development, drivers' licences, international adoption, the environment, science and technology, and communication.

For a major agreement to be binding, the Government of Quebec must first submit it to the Quebec National Assembly for approval. Only then will Quebec be bound by an international agreement entered into by Canada and agree to pass legislation to implement the agreement. Furthermore, under the legislation, Quebec's Department of International Relations must list and publish all of Quebec's international agreements. There is nothing of the sort in Canada.

The Bloc Québécois has introduced three bills on treaties to modernize the entire process for concluding international treaties.

The Bloc Québécois bill on treaties was designed to build transparency and democracy into the process of negotiating and concluding international treaties. Since such treaties have an increasingly large impact on our lives, it was more important than ever to make such a change. Moreover, the bill required that the federal government respect the provinces' jurisdictions.

The bill provided for five changes: all treaties were to be put before the House of Commons, the House was to approve important treaties, a parliamentary committee was to consult civil society before Parliament voted on important treaties, treaties were to be published in the Canada Gazette and on the Department of Foreign Affairs website and the government was to consult with the provinces before negotiating a treaty in an area of provincial jurisdiction.

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The treaty bill came to a vote only once, on September 28, 2005. All the federalist parties voted against it.

No strangers to contradiction, the Conservatives made two promises about international treaties during the last election campaign. They promised to put international treaties before the House prior to ratification and to give the provinces a role in concluding treaties pertaining to their jurisdictions. Both these promises were broken.

Since they were elected, the Conservatives have amended NAFTA. They have signed two investment protection agreements based on NAFTA chapter 11, one of which has been ratified. They have concluded a military cooperation agreement to authorize British soldiers to train in Canada. They have signed cooperation agreements on higher education, even though education does not come under Ottawa's jurisdiction. They have concluded an agreement to facilitate technology transfers from Canada to China. And they have amended the free trade agreement with Chile.

Aside from the amended NATO treaty, which was brought before the House at the last minute for a mini-debate and vote, none of these international treaties has come before the House.

And where is the nation of Quebec in all this? The federalist parties say they rejected the Bloc Québécois bill because of two clauses, 4 and 6.

First, clause 4 provided for a mechanism for consulting with the provinces:

Canada shall not, without consulting the government of each province in accordance with the agreements entered into under section 5, negotiate or conclude a treaty

(a) in an area under the legislative authority of the legislatures of the provinces; or

(b) in a field affecting an area under the legislative authority of the legislatures of the provinces.

As for clause 6, it recognized the validity of the Gérin-Lajoie doctrine:

Nothing in this Act in any manner limits or affects the royal prerogative of Her Majesty in right of a province with respect to the negotiation and conclusion of treaties in an area under the legislative authority of the legislatures of the provinces.

The clause on consulting Quebec and the provinces is nothing revolutionary. When the federal government discusses, in an international forum, the text of a treaty having an impact on the provinces, then it consults the provinces beforehand.

Under an agreement concluded in 1975—and still in effect—between the Trudeau government and the provinces, Ottawa consults the provinces at every stage of the negotiation of treaties involving human rights.

Every federalist party in Ottawa is more centralist than Pierre Elliott Trudeau on the issue of international relations.

It is not just a Bloc Québécois bill that the federalist parties have rejected, it is a Quebec law. Section 22.1 of the Act respecting the Ministère des Relations internationales requires the consent of the Government of Quebec with respect to the signing, ratification or adherence by the Government of Canada, before the latter acts internationally on any agreement concerning matters under Quebec's constitutional jurisdiction.

As far as the section recognizing the provinces' right to negotiate and conclude international treaties in their jurisdictions is concerned, it was simply a recognition of the Gérin-Lajoie doctrine which every Government of Quebec has been following since 1965.

The Gérin-Lajoie doctrine is closely linked to Quebec's independence: the provinces are completely sovereign within their jurisdictions and they must exercise their authority over the entirety of their jurisdictions, which includes signing and ratifying international treaties.

In closing, these are some of the arguments in favour of more involvement by parliamentarians in the negotiation and ratification of international treaties for the good of democracy.

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Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, as the member is probably aware, members of the NDP oppose the bill because of our concerns about it. The bill in and of itself, in terms of the process that it outlines for the settlement of investment disputes, is not so bad as far as it goes. However, we are very concerned about the larger context of the bill, its relationship to the World Bank and the involvement of multinational corporations.

One of the things we have raised in the debate on Bill C-9 is that the ICSID process does not allow for third party testimony except where there is consent from both parties in the arbitration, which is not necessarily easy to get. This has been held up as one of the serious concerns about this process. It makes the whole dispute mechanism, which is meant to be transparent, accountable and open, very inaccessible to local communities and third party stakeholders that may have a lot to say about representing a public interest in this process.

Could the member comment on that? Does she and members of her party also have concerns about that?

From our point of view, we think it will affect southern developing states most of all and will further marginalize developing countries in these transborder processes. It really eliminates the genuine and meaningful input of third party testimony of stakeholders and local communities, so the whole process becomes meaningless because they are in effect cut out.

Would the member comment on that?

[Translation]

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Mrs. Vivian Barbot:

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question. In fact, there are certain limitations in this type of treaty.

What I was trying to highlight in speaking about the context in which these matters are dealt with—and I did point this out—is that, on the one hand, civil society has no input and, on the other hand, even we as parliamentarians who represent civil society, do not have the opportunity to debate these treaties. This occurs in a context where it is the government that decides. Obviously, when the mechanism itself is included in these treaties, there may be some elements that are problematic. However, we believe that these treaties are much better than the current situation. It still represents a step forward in the resolution of conflicts that may arise from international treaties.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for her excellent address to the haggis last night.

At the beginning of the member's speech, she mentioned consultation with the provinces and territories in advance of such treaties. My understanding is that she was suggesting there was no consultation with the provinces and territories. If she asked federal employees in the Department of Foreign Affairs, they would tell her that they do consult with the provinces and territories about treaties affecting them.

Does the member believe no consultations are held with the provinces and territories when treaties are being negotiated?

[Translation]

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Mrs. Vivian Barbot:

Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that these consultations are just informal. The government has no official, legal obligation to consult the provinces and take their opinions into account. The provinces are not bound at all by these treaties when their areas of jurisdiction are involved. The government can make any decisions it wants because it has no obligations.

The provinces, in turn, are not bound unless they decide to ratify the treaties. In Quebec, if the government is asked for its opinion, it is obliged to check things out and bring all the necessary documents before the Assembly chamber. The chamber makes a decision and, at that point, Quebec is bound. It is the province that ratifies. This is what I meant when I said that there were no consultations.

Public officials talk to each other, of course, to learn what the effects will be, but regardless of what the provinces say, the central or federal government can sign the treaties it wants. However, it is the provinces that implement them, and the provinces can decide not to do so. This does not limit in any way the federal government’s power to sign these treaties.

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Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to congratulate my colleague on her speech. I wanted quickly to remind her that in question period yesterday in the House, a Conservative asked a question of the foreign affairs minister about international treaties, claiming that the Conservative Party was more open and transparent. He said: “—we committed to bringing international treaties before the House of Commons to give Parliament a role in reviewing them”. Note the use of the word “review”.

The foreign affairs minister, boasting about fulfilling another election promise, said: “Effective immediately, any international treaty we sign will be tabled in the House of Commons”.

I want to ask my colleague, therefore, where she sees any transparency in this and any ability of the House to really discuss treaties that have been signed by the government but are not brought before the House to be ratified but just to be presented and reviewed. We are still very far from parliamentary democracy.

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Mrs. Vivian Barbot:

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for this question. Naturally, what the member said yesterday caught my attention. This is another example of the current Conservative government's clever ways of saying one thing and then the very opposite. The government says it will honour its promise and that it will allow “reviewing”. Yet, given this choice of vocabulary, one can clearly see that this leaves no room for real discussion before the treaty is signed or ratified.

We are facing exactly the same situation as their promise concerning UNESCO. These are half-measures that do not resolve anything. Yet, the government uses them to say that it is delivering on something it had promised. Each time, we are disappointed, since the reality is at odds with the terms used. This is a perfect example of what I would call a lack of democracy.

To some extent, actually, it makes no difference if we are told that, from now on, Parliament will have its say, because, if we take a closer look at the situation, the government is facing a fait accompli. It is just more of the same.

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Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, this is also the second time I have spoken on this bill. As we already know, from what my colleague from Papineau has said, the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-9 in principle.

Passing this bill will mean that Canada can ratify the Convention on the Settlement of Investment Disputes between States and Nationals of Other States and join the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes.

Because I will be making frequent reference to the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes and the name is a little long, I will call it simply the centre in my speech.

Bill C-9 incorporates the requirements of the convention into domestic law, two reasons being to ensure compliance with arbitral awards and grant the immunities that the centre and its staff need. The centre was created by the World Bank in 1965 under the Treaty of Washington. At present there are 156 member countries. The centre is responsible for arbitrating disputes between a state and a foreign investor.

There are two potential kinds of conflicts: first, there are disputes relating to compliance with bilateral foreign investment protection agreements, and second, there are disputes relating to agreements between governments and foreign investors. These are agreements of the kind that the Government of Quebec and other governments regularly enter into to encourage foreign investment, with the promise, for example, to supply electricity at an agreed price.

Canada’s membership will have no impact on the provinces and Quebec, other than that they will also be able to allow for recourse to the centre when they enter into agreements with investors. The bilateral treaties signed by the federal government already provide for recourse to arbitration by the centre, but by way of the supplementary arbitration mechanism rather than a regular mechanism, which is available only to countries that have ratified the convention.

In fact, the only thing that Canada's joining the centre will change is that it will be able to participate in negotiations to amend the centre's convention or by-laws and will have the assurance that it may participate in appointing arbitration tribunals. There will therefore be direct participation in the centre. Ultimately, the centre is merely a tribunal, and the problem is not the tribunal, but the bad investment protection treaties that Canada signs.

The Bloc Québécois supports signing investment protection agreements as long as they are good agreements, obviously. It is entirely reasonable for an investor to try to ensure, before making an investment, that he or she will not end up losing his or her property, and will not be discriminated against. That is the situation that foreign investment protection agreements are intended to govern. This is not a new phenomenon. The first known agreement containing provisions relating to the protection of foreign investments was the agreement between France and the United States signed in 1788, over two centuries ago.

In May 2007 there were over 2,400 bilateral investment protection agreements in the world. If we add the tax conventions dealing with the tax treatment of foreign investments and income, there are about 5,000 bilateral treaties relating to foreign investments. The Bloc is in favour of signing agreements like this and recognizes that they promote investment and growth. These agreements are all based on more or less the same principles.

The first principle that could be mentioned is respect for property rights regardless of the owner's nationality. Second, there can be no nationalization without fair and prompt financial compensation. Third, there is a prohibition against treating property located within a country's territory differently depending on the owner's origin. Finally, there is free movement of capital resulting from the operation and the disposal of investment.

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In every case, when these rights are violated, states may submit disputes over compliance with an agreement to an international arbitration tribunal. In the majority of cases, investors themselves may submit the dispute to an international tribunal, but only with the consent of the state. In many cases, the international arbitration provided in the agreement takes place before the ICSID. By belonging to it, as Bill C-9 provides, we are also agreeing to an international order in the field of investment.

In the investment protection agreements that they sign, only two countries, Canada and the United States, systematically grant investors the right to appeal directly to international tribunals. This is a deviation from the norm. By allowing a company to operate outside government control, it is being given the status of a subject of international law, a status that ordinarily belongs only to governments.

The agreements that Canada signs contain a number of similar deviations, giving multinationals rights they should not have and limiting the power of the state to legislate and take action for the common good. Take, for instance, the now infamous chapter 11 of NAFTA, which provides that a dispute can go to ICSID. There are, however, three things wrong in that chapter: the definition of expropriation, the definition of investor, and the definition of investment.

The definition of expropriation is so vague that any government measure, except for a general tax measure, can be challenged by foreign investors if it diminishes the profits generated by their investments. Indeed, a Kyoto implementation plan which would have large polluters such as oil companies pay dearly could be challenged under chapter 11 and result in government compensation.

American companies have majority interests in Alberta oil companies. Chapter 11 opens the door to the worst kind of abuse of process. The definition of investor is so broad that it includes any shareholder. Anyone could therefore take the state to court and seek compensation for a government measure that allegedly cut into a company's profits.

As for the definition of investment, it is so broad that it even includes the profits that investors hope to derive from their assets in the future. In the case of expropriation, not only does the state find itself forced to pay fair market value, but it also has to include future revenues that investors expected to draw. This would make nationalizing electricity, as Quebec did in the 1960s, impossible.

Take the example of SunBelt, a corporation with one Canadian shareholder and one Californian shareholder. This corporation closed its doors when the Government of British Columbia removed the right to export water in bulk that it had been granted. Under Canadian law, the Canadian shareholder received compensation equivalent to the value of his investment: $300,000. Under chapter 11 of NAFTA, the American shareholder included in his claim all potential future revenue from the sale of water, for a total of $100 million. For better or for worse, the case was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount that is not likely to ever be disclosed.

Given the amounts of money at issue, chapter 11 acts as a deterrent to any government action, particularly with respect to the environment, whose effect would be to reduce the profits of a foreign-owned corporation. The dispute settlement mechanism allows corporations to apply directly to the international tribunals to seek compensation, without even having to obtain the consent of the state.

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Is it conceivable that a multinational corporation would be able, on its own initiative, to instigate a trade dispute between two countries? And yet that is the absurd situation that the chapter of NAFTA on investments allows. Given these flaws, chapter 11 of NAFTA reduces a state’s ability to take action for the common good and to enact environmental legislation, and amounts to a sword of Damocles that can come down at any moment on any legislation or regulations that might have the effect of cutting into corporate profits.

In 2005, the United States changed some of the provisions of their standard investment protection agreement. In 2006, Canada did the same. Because the two countries have now recognized the harmful and extreme nature of chapter 11 of NAFTA, the time is right for the government to act quickly to initiate talks with its American and Mexican partners to amend chapter 11 of NAFTA. We have to say no to bad investment protection agreements.

In addition to chapter 11 of NAFTA, and despite universal criticism of how extreme it is, the government has signed 16 other bilateral foreign investment protection agreements that are carbon copies of it. All of those foreign investment protection agreements are bad and should be renegotiated.

In 2006, the government gave some indication that it recognized that these agreements were bad. The Conservative government copied the changes made by the Bush administration the previous year, and in fact made changes to Canada’s FIPA program to fix some of the most glaring problems. It clarified the concept of expropriation by specifying that a non-discriminatory government measure designed to protect health and the environment and to promote a legitimate government objective should not be considered to be expropriation and should not automatically result in compensation.

It is too soon to assess the actual impact of that clarification, but at first blush it seems to be an improvement. It has narrowed the concept of investment by specifying that the value of property is equal to its fair market value. This puts an end to the madness of adding in all of the potential profits the investor hoped to earn from his or her investment. For the rest, the standard investment protection agreement continues to be modelled on chapter 11 of NAFTA.

The government must continue to improve this standard agreement, particularly as it relates to the dispute resolution mechanism. Multinational corporations must be brought back under public authority, as any individual is.

As well, the government should submit international treaties and agreements to the House before ratifying them. That is what we are being promised and it is what I referred to earlier, but is the purpose really to have a substantive discussion? Is it really a discussion to learn the benefits, the opportunities, perhaps, or the harm that might be caused to certain industries in Canada and Quebec?

Yesterday, the government seemed to be saying that the question of ratification was up for discussion and study, but is it going to ratify without the House having really come down for or against a specific agreement?

Early last year, the government issued a press release announcing that it had just ratified a new foreign investment protection agreement with Peru. Parliamentarians and the public learned about the agreement when they read the release. Parliament was never informed about it. It never approved it. That is completely anti-democratic.

In the last election, however, the Conservative election platform was clear: the Conservatives committed to submitting all international treaties and agreements for approval before ratifying them. That is not what we heard yesterday in this House: what was said was that they would be presented to the House and the House would be made aware of them, but the Conservative members, including the minister, never said that the House was to ratify them.

Since the Conservatives came to power, Canada has ratified about 26 or 27 international treaties. Except for the amendment to the NORAD treaty, which was the subject of a brief last-minute mini-debate and a vote, none of these international treaties were brought before the House.

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These days, international agreements can have as great an impact on our lives as laws. Nothing can possibly justify the secretive, unilateral ratification of these agreements by this government without the participation of the representatives of the people.

In the past, the Bloc Québécois introduced bills to restore democracy and ensure respect for the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces in the ratification of international treaties. Given that this is something the government promised to do, we did not bring it up again. However, today we see that a Conservative promise is not worth much.

So the Bloc Québécois will once again take this matter up and will make proposals to bring democracy back into the ratification of international treaties. The government must have an obligation to submit to the House all international treaties and agreements it has signed before ratifying them. The government must be required to publish all international agreements in which it is involved. The government must also allow the House to vote on and approve all major treaties, following study by a special committee responsible for reviewing international agreements, before ratifying them. The government must also respect the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces throughout the treaty-making process at the negotiation, signature and ratification stages.

In conclusion, the International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes is needed to ensure that States are treated fairly in their dealings with multinational corporations. We must also ensure that the agreements Canada signs are good ones that respect all stakeholders.

[English]

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, this particular law would protect employees in Canada and in many countries from arbitrary actions by governments that are not as predictable and do not have the formal procedures that Canada has. I think the member's party agrees with that.

In relation to his question about chapter 11 not allowing environmental regulation, does he have any specific examples of that occurring that he could give to the House?

[Translation]

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Mr. Serge Cardin:

Mr. Speaker, regarding environmental regulations, indeed, all countries, all responsible governments, whether Liberal or Conservative, should enforce them. Governments must establish environmental regulations that produce results.

In the current context where environmental legislation and regulations will have serious consequences for businesses that do not or did not comply with them, chapter 11 will do just that; it will ensure that certain businesses comply with the regulations, forcing them to implement various procedures or measures to protect our environment. However, this comes at a price.

Chapter 11, which we are discussing here today, would allow foreign companies—including American companies, of course—to sue any government that enforces these regulations. This is why chapter 11 of NAFTA really must be modified. Generally speaking, with regard to the ICSID, it ultimately comes down to relationships between the governments and the multinationals.

Canada must sign agreements and accords to ensure the development and maintenance of economic relationships with other countries, of course, and also must protect them. Basically, that is the goal of bilateral agreements reached by the government. They must be good agreements. Based on current regulations, for example, concerning the environment, the government must not allow multinationals the possibility of suing it on a daily basis. Thus, our treaties ultimately need to be good treaties that not only protect our investments and our investors but also the environment and our working conditions.

The reverse must also be true. For instance, some countries—and even Canada—invest money in other countries without respecting the rights of individuals or the environment. Yet if those countries suddenly were to implement policies to protect the working conditions of these people or the environment, would our own Canadian and Quebec businesses operating internationally demand compensation?

To sum up, agreements between countries must aim for fairness and justice, for us as well as for other people.

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Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in the House today at third reading on Bill C-9, An Act to implement the Convention on the Settlement of Investment Disputes between States and Nationals of Other States (ICSID Convention). The NDP is opposed to the bill and I will outline some of the reasons that we are opposed to it.

This is a bill that, on the face of it, looks fairly innocuous. It deals with a dispute mechanism. It involves the World Bank. It involves the status of multinational corporations when they are dealing with investment in foreign countries and ensuring there is a dispute resolution process.

On the face of it, it looks fairly reasonable, but when we dig a little bit deeper we find that this just skims the top in terms of what the bill represents in terms of a global regime that has seen over the last 20 years a massive transfer of power from governments to multinational corporations under the World Trade Organization under these trade agreements.

I would note that the Deputy Speaker, the member for Elmwood—Transcona himself, as a member of the House, has played a very active role. Mr. Speaker, I know you have been very involved with the NDP over the years when we fought the multilateral agreement on investment and the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas in Quebec City. Now we are dealing with the so-called security and prosperity partnership agreement that involves Canada, the United States and Mexico.

Mr. Speaker, I know you are very familiar and have a lot of credibility and a long record on dealing with these massive trade agreements that impact and undermine the democratic rights of Parliament and other states, and creates an enormous gulf in terms of the ability of citizens to organize themselves to have an impact on how these agreements come about and how they are dealt with in terms of disputes and the decisions that flow from them.

When we looked at Bill C-9 and had discussions in our caucus, we came to the conclusion that we could not support the bill.

The ICSID, as it is called, is part of an international trade and investment regime that has come under very harsh criticism from civil society because it does confer unprecedented powers to multinational corporations through bilateral investment treaties.

One of the concerns that I raised earlier today is that through this agreement there is no place for third party testimony. There is no accountability, no transparency and no openness or disclosure that would allow local organizations in an affected community or a labour union to come to the table and be part of the dispute resolution mechanism that is contemplated in this agreement unless there is consent by both parties involved in the arbitration, which is probably very unlikely. It makes it very inaccessible to local communities and third party stakeholders who would be impacted by the decisions being made. We believe that is a problem with the bill but that is just the tip of the iceberg.

A question was asked in the House yesterday by a Conservative backbencher who was congratulating the Minister of International Trade on his announcement that Canada has now concluded a free trade agreement with Peru. The Conservative member for Kelowna—Lake Country was asking the Minister of Labour whether the agreement with Peru would now provide labour rights protection in Peru. Not surprisingly, the Minister of Labour stood in the House and crowed that the trade agreement with Peru would deal with an improvement in labour rights, that everything would fine and that we should not worry about it. The Conservatives were patting themselves on the back.

I raise that issue because it is a very current example of the nature of these agreements and how they completely violate and undermine labour rights. They do nothing to be proactive in protecting very serious labour situations.

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Yesterday the Minister of Labour claimed in the House that this international trade agreement with Peru will give protection to labour rights. On January 18 information came from the Peruvian workers' union denouncing the fact that over 3,000 workers have been dismissed in that country for organizing trade unions. Labour rights are virtually non-existent. Something is not right with this picture.

Ministers are trying to assure the public that people's basic human rights around labour, child labour, the environment and social standards are being protected and yet we have very concrete examples to tell us that in places such as Peru, which is just one example, there are very serious situations. Workers in that country are being undermined and their rights are being violated all the time.

In October 2007 the International Trade Union Confederation prepared a report for its general council and reviewed trade policies in Peru. This is a very current report. It is quite clear about the fact that there are very serious problems in that country. The recommendations in the report made it very clear that the government of Peru should amend its legislation to conform with the International Labour Organization's conventions 87 and 98. Convention 87 has to do with the freedom of association. Convention 98 has to do with the right to organize and the right to collective bargaining.

I find it contradictory that on the one hand a minister of the Conservative government is trying to assure us that everything is okay and that he has negotiated something that is going to protect those workers and yet the representatives of workers in that country are portraying a completely different reality. That is something of concern to the NDP.

We in the NDP believe that as parliamentarians we have a responsibility to not only uphold these international conventions that protect labour, human rights and the environment in our own country, but we also have a responsibility to speak out in the international community to make sure that those rights are upheld. We expect the Government of Canada to do the same. We expect the Government of Canada to show leadership on those questions.

To come back to the bill that is before us today, that is the very reason we find it to be very contentious. It is the very reason we find this bill to be completely missing the point about what is taking place on a global scale.

The members in our caucus have participated in many forums, discussions and educational workshops. It is quite incredible, given this global situation of opening up the floodgates to the transfer of capital with virtually no rules, that citizens have taken it upon themselves to become informed and educated as to what it is that is going on. These are not easy matters to get a handle on. These are very complicated agreements set up under the WTO. We learned that from the MAI. We are learning that now from the security and prosperity partnership.

We know that agreements are put together in secret. They are done at places like Montebello where leaders meet behind closed doors. The connection to the public, the ability of civil society to have any input or to be able to say anything is limited. In fact, security forces go to great lengths to ensure that kind of dialogue does not take place.

Our caucus has a lot of experience in dealing with these agreements. We understand the implications they have for a democratic society. Fundamentally, we express our concern in the House as well as in the community that we see it as a shift from making decisions in a democratic process in Parliament to a secretive process where we have no access. We do not even have access to that as members of Parliament.

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If Canadians were asked what is the purpose of government, what are we here for, our constituents and members in our community would say that the purpose of government is to protect them. The purpose of government is to ensure that they have health care, education, income security and that the country is safe.

Over the years under these neo-liberal and neo-conservative policies, we have seen a massive shift in the role of government. That power has been transferred from government into the hands of undemocratic, unelected, unaccountable, non-transparent multinational corporations. These trade agreements have facilitated that process.

We should be standing up very strongly against these kinds of agreements. What we are most concerned about right now is the security and prosperity partnership that is taking place between the countries on the American continent: Canada, United States and Mexico.

We have been very outspoken. The member for Burnaby—New Westminster, our trade critic, has done an amazing job. He has travelled across this country. He has already gone to 12 communities. He is travelling to another 12 communities where we are holding public hearings on the SPP.

There is so much deep concern in the community about what that agreement will do and the fact that the government, as the previous government did, is signing on to this agreement with virtually no public disclosure. It will impact every aspect of domestic life in Canada. It will impact on the ability of Parliament to do its job. It will impact on the delivery of services. It will exacerbate the privatization of services. It will exacerbate the deregulation that is taking place in our society. At the end of the day these are things that begin to affect the quality of life. It becomes a race to the bottom.

We recognize the connection that this bill has in dealing with the dispute mechanism and its attachment to the World Bank, how it is completely complicit and tied into this move to globalization that is shutting down the democratic process. We strongly object to that. We intend to do everything we can not only in Parliament but in the broader civil society to see that these agreements are opened up, changed, that they are refuted.

We understand that trade is obviously going to happen. Trade is an important part of our economic activity in life, but we want to see fair trade. We want to see trade that is based on agreed to and implemented around core standards that set out labour rights, that set out environmental rights, that set out a social contract and social conditions so that the workers in the south are not being exploited and that Canadian workers are not losing their jobs as a result of these trade agreements.

We have seen a loss of over 300,000 manufacturing jobs. The Canada-South Korea trade agreement is under development. All of these things are taking place with virtually no debate or understanding. All this takes place behind closed doors.

The bill before us today is at third reading, but we believe it is not a good bill. It does not deal with realities that are before us in terms of what is happening with these trade agreements. We have to be incredibly skeptical about what the Conservative government is doing and what its agenda is.

I will use another example. Yesterday in the House we heard a minister of the government say that international treaties will be brought before the House which will be tabled, discussed and debated. On the face of it, it sounds reasonable, but if we go back a couple of years to September 2004, the then leader of the official opposition, who is now the Prime Minister, actually made a commitment with the other opposition leaders, including the leader of the Bloc and the leader of the NDP, that international treaties should be voted on in this House.

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That was an actual commitment. It was part of a package that was brought forward in that first minority Parliament. We agreed that there should be a vote in the House of Commons on international treaties. Already we have seen the Conservative government break its promise just by its announcement yesterday that there will not be a vote, that there may be some debate or notice. That is a clear violation of the commitment made in September 2004.

I will close by saying that members of our caucus have reviewed the bill very thoroughly. We have debated and discussed it with our partners in the labour movement, in the Canadian Labour Congress and other places with members of civil society. There is no question that the approval of the bill would reinforce a regime of trade and international practice that gives massive powers to multinational corporations at the expense of the democratic process in places like the House of Commons.

On that basis we cannot support the bill. We urge other members of the House to also show the strength of representing the public interest, because that is what we are here to do, to represent the public interest, and to vote down the bill.

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Hon. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I listened very intently to my colleague's comments. She gave a fine dissertation on socialism. I would like to compare two countries, India and Zimbabwe.

India is a country that had very high levels of poverty. That country liberalized its markets, reduced restrictions, enabled the private sector to expand and improved trade among and between its neighbours. The outcome has been a dramatic decline in the poor in that country, with a burgeoning middle class.

While blanket free trade is not the answer and checks and balances have to occur and it must be fair trade, I would like to ask my hon. colleague for her comments. Hernando de Soto and Mohammed Unis and other people have spent their lives reducing poverty and they have spoken about the merits of free and fair trade. Does she not think that free trade agreements with countries enables those countries to raise their standards to the standards that our workers enjoy? In that way we are able to improve the lot in those countries, instead of erecting barriers to development, barriers to trade. Such barriers actually enable countries to maintain the restrictive covenants within their countries and hamstring the private sector and ultimately lead to a greater number of people living in poverty.

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Ms. Libby Davies:

Mr. Speaker, for us the question is not whether there is trade but what the rules are that govern trade. I gave the example today of Peru and what is happening in that country. We could look at other countries, such as Colombia, or any situation and see decades of terribly exploitative practices.

It is unprincipled for us in the north to advance these trade agreements on the basis that somehow we are lifting people out of poverty, when in actual fact we have created a regime that reinforces the divide between the north and the south and reinforces the exploitation that takes place. In fact, it makes it even more systemic. We need to acknowledge that and develop trade practices that have at their foundation labour codes, rules and the right to organize. Implementing the International Labour Organization conventions would be a start. Even Canada is not a signatory to all of those conventions.

If we cannot begin at that place and recognize that we must protect people's rights in terms of their labour, then I would say these trade rules are not worth the paper they are written on. They are simply a regime for greater and greater profit margins for multinational corporations. That is why they want them. They want to go into those developing countries. They want to see minimal rules because they want to find greater markets. They want to find more cheap labour. We should recognize the impact that has in our own country.

Yesterday in question period there were questions on the manufacturing sector and the loss of jobs in the forestry sector, the auto sector, the resource sector. Everybody was talking about it. It is related to these trade agreements. There is an impact here at home. The member needs to understand that for us it is not about trade. It is about the regime and the rules that we create. We believe that this particular bill will reinforce a regime that is fundamentally anti-democratic.

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Hon. Keith Martin:

Intriguingly enough, Mr. Speaker, in many ways the goals of the member and the goals of most of us are the same: the improvement of working conditions and the alleviation of poverty for workers. I have a question for the member. Does she not think that engaging other countries, by removing the barriers and creating norms and standards so that workers in our country and in other countries can actually enjoy the same standards, is a fair, equitable and reasonable goal? Does she not think that the way to do that is through these free trade agreements?

In fact, the biggest culprits, the two biggest problems, and the reasons why in many ways poverty remains in developing countries, are corruption and the lack of capacity. These are the two biggest cancers. The lack of capacity in developing countries and the corruption within those countries are the two greatest obstacles to sustainable development within those countries.

International organizations such as the World Bank and the IMF continually give large tomes to developing countries, with all manner of plans and objectives, but unfortunately those countries have no hope whatsoever of operationalizing them, because they do not have the people to take on those ideas and implement them. It is a fool's game and we continue to play that game.

Does the member not think we can achieve the objective of better working standards for workers, higher pay for workers and better environmental standards in the countries in which we are working by engaging those countries and establishing those rules through free trade agreements for the mutual benefit of both countries?

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Ms. Libby Davies:

Mr. Speaker, the member says there are two main barriers to the progress of prosperity for developing countries and he names capacity and corruption. I would add a third: exploitation under this regime of multinational corporations marching in, using natural resources, using cheap labour with no standards whatsoever, and exploiting the environment and local workers.

I would agree with him that of course we have to work for agreements that protect those social standards, but the reality is that over the last two or three decades of this incredible advancement of a globalized agenda through organizations such as the World Bank and the WTO, the primary focus has been on trade and lifting those barriers based on the needs and capacity of the multinational corporations, not based on whatever the domestic conditions are in the receiving country.

The whole premise that he advances is something that actually has not happened under this process of globalization. I think it is something that needs to be changed. Why would we not begin first with labour standards? Why would we not begin first with environmental standards and social standards? Why would we not begin from a place of social equity and social justice and advance trade on that basis?

As governments, we can do that if we have the political will. That is what we stand for in this party.

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Hon. Keith Martin:

Mr. Speaker, again I ask the member to look at countries such as India. I ask her to look at them before trade liberalization occurred and afterward.

Before trade liberalization, many industries were state-owned and inefficient, with high levels of poverty and worse working conditions. After trade liberalization occurred, there was competition. Standards were set. There was an improvement in wages. Poverty was reduced. Wages increased. Grinding poverty for the poorest of the poor, those living on less than a dollar a day, has been reduced dramatically. Let us compare those before and after situations in India. It is an intriguing example of what trade liberalization can do and should be doing.

I agree with my colleague in that we ought to be ensuring that these elements of worker security and environmental protection are built into the agreements we have. Indeed, that is what we attempt to do. The alternative is not to do that at all. Hernando De Soto and Muhammad Yunus have spoken eloquently about how we can make free trade agreements work and how we can tap into the private sector to enable it to be the generator of improved worker conditions and wages. We know that the private sector is the major generator of jobs in countries. We know that small and medium-sized businesses are the major generators of wealth.

Does the member not see that there are ways to make this happen through effective free trade agreements and that Canada can take a leadership role in this given the fine standards we have in our own country?

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Ms. Libby Davies:

Mr. Speaker, clearly when an agreement is signed and goes into effect there are people who benefit. The member gives some examples of what has happened in India, but I could also use Mexico as an example. I point out that after the free trade agreement with Mexico the average wage of workers there actually went down. We saw the factory zones. We saw the massive exploitation that took place and is still taking place.

In fact, in India, yes, there is a developing middle class that is well educated, but again I think we have to look at the whole balance sheet. If we do that, there is absolutely overwhelming evidence to show that overall the inequities not only have remained but have actually been reinforced through these agreements. They actually are producing some kind of collision course, with a divide in terms of wealth and power between the north and the south and the divide within our countries between wealth and growing poverty.

We see this in our own country. We just have to look at the massive loss of jobs in our own country. There are a lot of families who are simply being left behind. We are talking about the prosperity gap and the people who have been left behind by the government.

I think we have to look at the total picture, and when we do that there is only one conclusion that we come to, which is that these trade agreements as they are now are very bad. They are bad for the quality of life for average people. They reinforce the power of huge corporations that really could not care less about the workers who are working in their factories. It is our job to stand up for that and to challenge this.

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The Deputy Speaker:

Is the House ready for the question?

Some hon. members: Question.

The Deputy Speaker: The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

Some hon. members: No.

The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Some hon. members: Yea.

The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.

Some hon. members: Nay.

The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

The Deputy Speaker: There has been a request that the vote be deferred until tomorrow at 5:30 p.m. It is so ordered.

* * *

Privilege

Alleged impediment in the discharge of a Member's duties

[Privilege]

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Hon. Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Minister for the Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence and the indulgence of my fellow members of the House I would like to respond to a question of privilege raised by the member for Mississauga South earlier this morning.

On the question of privilege the member for Mississauga South raised, I have the blues with me. Apparently in a conversation with a staff member of Health Canada's product safety branch he was asked the question, “Is your member of Parliament a member of the opposition?”

I want to assure members of the House that this is not standard operating procedure at Health Canada. I was not aware of this until the hon. member raised this issue. We will certainly make it clear to members of the public service and staff members that this is not a relevant or appropriate question to ask.

Sometimes in the House, Mr. Speaker, things get a bit confused. Sometimes we have people who cross floors. Sometimes we have people in the opposition who think they are in government. Sometimes we have people in government who still think they are in the opposition. However, in this case I think it is pretty clear that this kind of question is not necessary. I do take it very seriously and certainly will find an appropriate response for the hon. member.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, on the same point, I hope that when the minister is obtaining his response he could look into ensuring that when members from any party, and from the government as well, inquire of his employees on non-partisan issues like this particular one they get an answer as quickly as possible, the same as for any citizen, without apparently, as the member said, the employee having to send a form to Ottawa that it was an MP requesting this. I assume the minister will let all members know when he is replying that--

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The Deputy Speaker:

I think the member has made his point.

I am not sure if we should continue the question of privilege, but I will hear from the hon. member for Vancouver East, briefly.

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Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, very briefly on the same point, we appreciate the fact that the Minister of Health has come in to talk about his department, but I think the original question of privilege raised by the member for Mississauga South raises the question about where else it might be happening. Apparently there was a form in existence. I am hoping that the minister as a member of the cabinet will look not only at his own department but at others as well, because I think we need to know and be assured that this is not happening in other departments. I would make that response to the minister.

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Criminal Code

[Government Orders]

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Hon. Rob Nicholson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, CPC)

moved that Bill C-27, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity theft and related misconduct), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-27, an act to amend the Criminal Code on the subject of identity theft.

[Translation]

This bill follows through on the promise made by the government in the Speech from the Throne to fight identity theft.

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[English]

It also furthers the government's larger agenda of tackling crime and making our communities safer.

There is no universally accepted definition of “identity theft”, but it is generally understood to refer to either or both the acquisition or the use of identifying information of another person to perpetrate fraud or another related crime.

In most cases, the impersonation of someone else to obtain something of value is the goal of identity theft, as in the case of credit card fraud when someone pretends to be the cardholder in a transaction. In more serious cases, a criminal impersonates someone else to accomplish a more sophisticated fraud, such as real estate title fraud or mortgage fraud. We have seen this very recently in the province of Ontario, where by impersonating a property owner, a criminal sells or takes out a mortgage on a property and then disappears with the proceeds. The true owner then is left to struggle to retain title and perhaps also to fight with the mortgage lender to avoid the liability of that debt.

Sometimes impersonation is not committed for the purpose of using someone else's identity to obtain something of value, but rather to conceal the criminal's own identity. For instance, some criminals maintain and use the identities of others for run-of-the-mill transactions that are themselves part of a larger criminal scheme. For instance, they may use an innocent person's identity to rent an apartment in which they plan to manufacture drugs or from which they intend to sell illegal contraband. When the crime is detected, the trail can lead back to the innocent person who was unlucky enough to have his or her personal information stolen and used to protect the guilty. There may be little in the way of a trail leading to the guilty persons themselves.

Identity theft is not new, but it has certainly mushroomed in modern society. Our world is different in ways not imagined by earlier generations. Information itself has become a commodity. It opens the door to goods, services and places. In this new world, people are mobile and commercial transactions can happen across borders via technological means rather than direct human verification in near instantaneous timeframes.

New technologies have complicated the task of authenticating identities in yet an additional way. The very same technological innovations that have increased the speed, efficiency and convenience of our transactions with governments and the private sector have simultaneously created new opportunities for fraudsters and other criminals. This is because massive amounts of information are now stored in computer systems. Unless appropriate precautions are taken, the information stored in this way is vulnerable to being accessed and copied and effortlessly transferred in many cases across the border for criminal purposes.

We also know that identity theft has been linked to organized crime and also to terrorism. Identity theft is useful in both of these contexts as a method of revenue generation. It is also a method of identity concealment, which I also spoke about, that allows organized criminals and terrorists to avoid raising suspicion or being detected by authorities, especially in cases where their true identities are already known to law enforcement and other agencies.

While we do not have complete statistics on the cost of identity theft, it has been reasonably estimated that this costs Canadians approximately $2 billion a year. The cost of credit card fraud alone for the year 2006 was estimated by the Canadian Bankers Association to be close to $300 million and debit card losses were close to $100 million in that same year. These numbers have been going up incrementally over the last decade or so.

It is unmistakable. Identity theft hurts businesses, governments and individuals. Aside from the financial repercussions, individuals whose identities have been stolen report, not surprisingly, distress, anxiety and depression in terms of the effort involved in rehabilitating their reputations and credit histories and recovering lost property. They also report a significant emotional impact of having had their identities used by another person.

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In the rare cases where the identities of innocent people are used to shield a criminal's identity, the victims must also struggle to demonstrate their lack of involvement in the criminal's scheme in order to protect themselves from suspicion of criminal responsibility.

In short, identity theft is both a crime in itself and a tool for the facilitation of other crimes. For offenders, it offers the potential for high financial risk coupled with a low risk of detection. Over the last 15 years, it has grown in frequency and seriousness and the criminal law has not kept up with these changes.

When I first announced that we intended to make these changes in Montreal, a reporter asked me if this was my attempt to stay one step ahead of the bad guys. I said that we just wanted to catch up with the bad guys. This is the challenge that we have in the Criminal Code as technology continues to change. The time has arrived for the government to improve the Criminal Code and to ensure that it fully meets the needs of Canadians today.

Let me focus on those particular problems that we have identified.

First, members would understand that there are obviously some significant challenges vis-à-vis terminology in this area. The terms “identity theft”, “identity fraud” and “identity related crime” are bandied about regularly, yet none of these terms have a precise or universally understood meaning. They are no terms that are currently defined in the Criminal Code and so the phrase “crime of identity theft” can immediately generate uncertainty as to exactly what is meant. One of the objectives of the bill is to bring some clarity to these terms in the context of the criminal law.

It may be helpful to first appreciate that there are two phases of an identity crime. The first is the collection of information and the second is the actual use of that information in connection with a crime.

Our criminal law addresses many of the situations where people actually use the identity of other people or some of their identity information in the commission of an offence. It is helpful to characterize this form of conduct as identity fraud, the focus being on the actual fraudulent use of an identity.

The crime of personation, for instance, directly targets the fraudulent impersonation of someone under certain circumstances. Specifically, a person commits the crime of personation when he or she personate someone else with intent to obtain property, another type of economic benefit, or even with intent to gain an advantage that is not economic in nature, or with intent to cause a disadvantage to any person. The Criminal Code also contains offences which prohibit the making of false documents and the use of those documents to deceive someone.

There are also offences in relation to the misuse or misappropriation of credit or debit cards and even the unlawful possession of certain types of credit or debit card data. All of these offences are punishable, as they should be, by up to 10 years imprisonment.

Another crime that frequently applies to an identity theft situation is the offence of fraud. Where the value of the fraud is over $5,000, the offence carries a maximum term of 14 years.

There are already strong sanctions in the Criminal Code for the actual use of another person's identity, but there are limitations. Most important, our Criminal Code does not currently criminalize the early phases of identity crime operations which involve the acquisition and transfer of the identity information for a later fraudulent use.

Unless people commit some other existing crime in the course of acquiring the information, such as the theft of a wallet or misuse of a computer system, they cannot be stopped when they gather or trade sensitive, personal information that subsequently gets used in crimes. This means that where the police find people in possession of comprehensive dossiers on individuals, including all manner of identifying information, they may be unable to lay a charge or even to seize the data. Likewise, where people set up shop of acquiring that information and then selling it for a profit, knowing that it might be used in the commission of a crime, there may be no chargeable offence.

We can group together various aspects of this early stage of an operation under the term “identity theft” as contrasted with “identity fraud”, which refers to the actual subsequent use of the information.

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It is time for our criminal law to catch up with the criminals, and this is what Bill C-27 does.

First, it would create three new offences that would be directly target the identity theft stage of a criminal operation. All of these, I should point out, are punishable by up to five years in prison.

The first new offence would make it a crime to acquire, obtain or possess another person's identity information in circumstances giving rise to a reasonable inference that the information was intended to be used deceptively or fraudulently in the commission of a crime.

This offence directly attacks those people who, as a first step to a later crime, hack into a large corporation's computer systems to obtain customer information, or who send phony emails out tricking people into providing their personal information to them, or who dive through, incredibly enough, people's garbage cans looking for discarded credit card information or utility bill information. It would also make a criminal out of the person who receives identity information from someone else for later use to commit a crime.

A complementary offence would be created for those people who set up business as information traffickers. These people are not involved in the ultimate criminal use of the information, yet they provide the tools necessary for the criminals to engage in their crimes. The bill would therefore make it a crime to transfer or otherwise provide to another person the identity information of a third person, where the trafficker would know or would be reckless about the future criminal use of that information.

For both these offences, the legislation would create a broad definition of identity information which covers all types of information that could be used for criminal purposes. The definition includes name, date of birth, address, biometric information, various forms of alphanumeric identifiers, such as driver's licence numbers, passport numbers and financial account numbers, and any other information capable of being used in that way.

An important feature that members should notice here is that these offences are directed at the mishandling of information. This means it will not matter whether the information is contained in an official identification document, or it is copied or stored in some other form.

Another situation that the police are concerned about is the situation where they find people in possession of numerous cards or documents, which are commonly used for identification purposes, such as driver's licences, health cards and social insurance cards. It may be obvious that these documents were intended for criminal use, but there may be no chargeable offence.

To remedy this situation, the bill would create a new offence for unlawfully procuring, possessing and trafficking in specified government issued identification numbers belong to or containing information of other people or containing fictitious information. These documents are crucial tools for authenticating identity in the course of a wide range of interactions between citizens, the government and the private sector and for obtaining additional documents. They are easily misused by criminals and they must be better protected.

The bill would also amend existing provisions in the Criminal Code to create a complete package of criminal laws addressing identity theft.

First, the bill would complement the existing set of forgery offences by adding new offences of trafficking in forged documents and possessing forged documents with intent to use them or traffic in them.

It would also add new offences for fraudulently redirecting or causing the redirection of a person's mail. This one I like as well. We can see how easy that may be to start to redirect somebody else's mail to another place so that information can then be gathered up and used improperly. We make it a crime to possess a counterfeit Canada Post mail key.

In addition, the bill would make clear that the offence of fraudulently acquiring, possessing, trafficking and using debit card data includes the debit card PIN number, or the personal identification number.

The law also would be clarified to ensure that it would be an offence to possess instruments for copying debit card data, which are known as skimming devices, in addition to the existing offence of possessing instruments for forged credit cards. Again, this is an attempt to update the Criminal Code.

The offence of personation will be amended to make it clear that it is a crime to use another person's identity to evade arrest or prosecution.

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Another clarification will help courts understand that personation can be an ongoing, multi-transaction occurrence, a true “identity takeover”, or a simple case of fraudulently using someone's information just one time, such as a single fraudulent credit card purchase.

Also, we are proposing to rename the offence from personation to “identity fraud” to better highlight its significance and to contrast it against the preparatory stages of identity theft.

We are concerned about the victims of identity theft. To help address the impact that identity theft has on victims, this bill would amend the restitution provisions of the Criminal Code to ensure that, as part of the sentence it imposes, a court can order the offender to pay the victim reasonable costs associated with the rehabilitation of that individual's credit rating and identity.

It is appropriate at this time to commend certain members of the House who have brought this matter forward. My colleague from Edmonton—Leduc has brought forward Bill C-299. It was originally drafted to address one aspect of identity theft, which is called pretexting. Bill C-299 passed third reading in the House on May 8, 2007 and is awaiting second reading consideration by the Senate.

In the world of identity theft, pretexting is the technique of using deception of one kind or another to get people to reveal personal information about themselves. Because Bill C-299 only deals with pretexting and not with other methods used by identity thieves to gather personal information, we are proposing that it be repealed, if it should be passed, when this legislation comes into force.

When Bill C-299 was before the justice committee, it was evident that all committee members were deeply concerned about the problem of identity theft and were motivated to act collectively to build consensus on an effective solution.

We all appreciate the efforts of the member for Edmonton—Leduc and I would like to take the opportunity as well to thank a couple of other members of the House. The member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre and the member for Fleetwood—Port Kells have also previously tabled private members' bills in this area. Their combined efforts have helped educate all members of the House on the problem of identity theft.

I indicated there are limitations in the current criminal law. We intend to update and extend the use of the criminal law to keep up with the changes of technology that have taken place in this country. I urge all members to support this bill and get it enacted as quickly as possible.

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Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, in addition to the provisions of the bill, which I think are generally accepted and recognized by all parties in the House as being required, there have been other areas where we have sought government intervention, in particular in the control of databases that contain personal identification and greater regulation of the security around databases in the private sector, as well as the public sector, because there have been losses not only in this country but in any number of other countries of large databases that contain extensive personal identification.

The secondary area was the requirement, if a theft or loss occurs in some other fashion, of what the private or public sectors would be required to do to notify individuals who had been impacted. I wonder if the minister could comment as to whether the government has any intention of dealing with those two areas.

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Hon. Rob Nicholson:

Mr. Speaker, one of the things everyone can agree on in this government is that we have an extensive crime fighting agenda that is moving forward in a number of different areas.

I appreciate the member's concern for control of database information and all of us, of course, applaud and welcome every attempt by the private sector and others to disclose that information. As he quite correctly pointed out this is not just a Canadian problem. We see these gaps in other parts of the world.

However, I think the member will agree that this legislation is a significant step forward in cracking down on those individuals who exploit others and take advantage of them to make money at the expense of other people's identity.

I have spoken with a number of police agencies across this country which were the ones, among others, who pointed out the gaps that exist in the present legislation. The individual who is using a forged credit card obviously runs afoul of the law as it stands in this country. That person is charged for any number of offences that can apply to that individual. But these other groups of individuals who are trafficking and collecting personal information about others, there exists this gap within the Criminal Code.

We have been very careful to make this focused, to address the concerns of police agencies and others. They are quite concerned about a $2 billion a year loss. That is what we are talking about in this area and they want something done.

I appreciate suggestions, as I always do, from the hon. member. I have found him to be a thoughtful individual when it comes to these issues. As I have indicated to him before, I appreciate suggestions that he has made and I am sure will continue to make in the criminal law area.

However, with respect to this particular legislation, as he knows, it is more extensive and it goes beyond Bill C-299. So, in that sense, because it is expanded and is focused on what everyone would agree is a challenge for us in society today, I hope that it will get speedy passage from this House.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I have three questions, but I will ask one at a time in case other people have questions.

I do not disagree with anything the minister said. To strengthen our ability to achieve this objective, the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine has a private member's Bill C-416 which provides for the modernization of investigative techniques for the police to be able to investigate crimes that could be prosecuted under this act. Would the minister support that bill as well?

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Hon. Rob Nicholson:

Mr. Speaker, as we do with all privates members' bills, we look at them very carefully and we no doubt will very carefully look at that one. He says the bill would modernize investigative techniques for police officers. This is what we are doing.

The people, interestingly enough, who were the very first ones to come forward and to applaud this were the people in the credit card industry, bankers, et cetera, the people who sometimes end up getting burned on these things.

However, I can tell members that police agencies across this country welcomed this because, just as the hon. member raised the subject of investigative techniques, they were saying there is this huge gap, that by the time we have these criminals who are using this information stealing people's identity and information there is a whole slew of people who are part of this process leading up to the actual crime, and in many cases the hands of the police were tied in terms of doing something about that.

There are a number of things and I challenge and welcome people to have a close look at that. For instance, there are scanning machines that allow people to pick up other people's information. This is exactly the kind of thing that we want to pick up.

When the hon. member in the Speaker's Chair was first elected, some of these things did not even exist. If I had asked him what a scanning device would be, he might have had a completely different idea what this would have been 20 years ago when he was first elected to the House, but we now know that people are using these types of equipment and they are gathering up information.

The irony is these things are not just confined to Canada for our police to investigate. It underlines again how we have to cooperate with people outside of this country because this information does not just stay within Canada. It gets exported to the United States, Britain, Europe and other places where in some cases it gets used for criminal purposes.

So, yes, we have to be, as we try to be, very responsive to those concerns brought forward by investigating agencies. At the same time, of course, we have to balance the civil liberties of individuals. But we know that these gaps exist, and this is a terrific step forward.

I can tell the hon. member that I have had very positive feedback about this. Since the first day we announced that we were going forward on this, I have had good feedback.

My colleagues in my own party have been urging this. They know from constituents who sometimes get burned by identity theft and are taken advantage of, they welcome that. Even the provision I mentioned at the end about helping to compensate victims, I can tell members, has received widespread support among the colleagues within my own party.

Again, I commend this to the House and hope that members will have a look at that and at some of these provisions. I think they will agree with me that many of these things were long overdue and that they should have speedy passage.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau):

The hon. member for Crowfoot should craft his question to last 40 seconds.

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Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank our minister for bringing forward this bill and for his hard work. I know he has just shepherded the tackling violent crime bill. I think it very clearly shows that the government, as he stated in his speech, is doing everything it can to toughen up on crime and to provide security to more Canadians.

My constituents understand exactly mandatory jail times for serious gun crimes, raising the age of consent, and all the different things regarding tackling violent crime. However, as far as identity theft is concerned, I have had the opportunity to sit down with individuals who have been scammed, where someone else has been using their credit card, and I know that is not in its entirety what identify theft is. I wonder if the minister could just talk a bit about how organized crime fundraises with efforts such as identity theft and these types of fraud schemes to help raise funds to continue to have resources to break the law.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau):

The hon. minister should know that the questioner took four times as much time as he had been granted and that the clock has run out. However, I will allow a short time to respond, but this time I mean it.

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Hon. Rob Nicholson:

All right, Mr. Speaker, but I cannot let the opportunity go without thanking the member for Crowfoot for all that he has done to fight criminal justice issues. He has made this a part in his career as a parliamentarian and so, I have to get that in.

I can tell members that with respect to organized crime, he has it exactly right. Organized crime uses schemes like this to steal other people's identity and their information and it uses that to raise the money for other illegal activities. I am very pleased that he brought that up.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to speak today to Bill C-27, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity theft and related misconduct).

On March 14, 2007, the Liberal leader made a major speech in Toronto on fighting crime encouraging the government to bring forward legislation on identity theft and committing that a Liberal government would do that if the Conservative government did not.

It has long been a policy of the Liberal Party to strengthen provisions to prevent identity theft and we will be supporting any provisions that will do that. Hopefully, through that and with the debate today, we will make Canadians who are not aware, who are not part of the almost 10% who have already been victimized, of the jeopardy they are in and the protection they should take for themselves, and also the provisions companies, small and large businesses, should be taking to protect themselves and Canadians from identity theft.

If a criminal steals one piece of mail there can be enough information in it to have serious ramifications down the road for a Canadian citizen. Therefore, everyone needs to be more vigilant today than ever before because this new type of crime can affect people far worse than if someone were to steal all the money one happened to be carrying one day or to steal one's wallet.

Criminals need very little information to inflict tens of thousands of dollars of damage on a person. They basically need a name, address, maybe birthdate and sometimes a social insurance card. With those pieces of information, all sorts of damage can be inflicted upon people costing them thousands of dollars. People should be very vigilant because that is not very much information and criminals can get it easily.

Most Canadian citizens have given that information to dozens of other people for many reasons. The information is all over the place. People need to take care to protect their information because as soon as criminals have a little bit of information like that they use it to apply for bank accounts, credit cards, social insurance numbers and false drivers' licences. It can have terrible consequences for people. Perhaps 9% of Canadians, one in ten of our friends, have already had this occur to them in some way or another at great expense and inconvenience.

Sometimes it is even more sophisticated. Some criminals will impersonate people in order to use their medical plans to get medical benefits. Once again, that can amount to tens of thousands of dollars. Some criminals are using it to commit mortgage fraud. They will impersonate a person to get a mortgage for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for which the person being impersonated could be responsible. I had a constituent suggest that people applying for such a mortgage should have their picture taken. I would be curious as to the minister's response to that suggestion.

The theft may not be committed directly on the person who is victimized. It could come from one's workplace which has detailed information about its employees. The information could be taken from some other workplace where information was submitted for a good reason. It is very important to us that the information is protected by companies and that they are very careful about access to an employee's personal information.

Criminals are getting people's information off the computer through Internet hackers. They are getting it from mailboxes, garbage left outside, country mailboxes, dumpsters and from recycling bins.

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Criminals can get even more sophisticated. If they cannot get the information in that way, they might send out a spam email that looks totally appropriate. They might tell the person that there is a problem with his or her bank account and ask the person to fill in a little bit of information. An unsuspecting person may fill in the information and then the criminals would have the person's bank account number and other personal information.

A sophisticated case happened here in Ottawa where people set up a phoney job ad. When people answered the ad they were asked for a resume which contains the birthdate, social insurance number and address. Instantaneously the criminals had all the information they needed to steal tens or hundreds of thousands dollars from Canadian citizens. They then used that information to apply for credit cards, drivers' licences or SIN numbers and could leave a person responsible for all sorts of damages for money and inconvenience.

If Canadians are not aware of this they should be. It is so prevalent that it now has an official name, “phishing”, where criminals will ask someone for his or her bank account number because of a problem with the person's account. This has been done to hundreds of Canadians.

The telemarketing PhoneBusters is an organization that deals with this problem because it is so big. It suggests that there has already been over 7,800 identity thefts in Canada costing $16 million. It estimates that is only 5% of what is actually happening.

As I said, 9% of Canadian have already been touched by this type of crime.

I ask Canadians to please protect themselves, to be very careful about protecting their birthdate and social insurance number . People do not need to carry their social insurance card with them everywhere they go. It is not needed that often. They should keep their SIN card and birth certificate locked up in a safe place. They should not give out their mothers' maiden name indiscriminately. They should know exactly to whom they are giving their information and for what reason. They should review their credit reports annually to ensure they have no outstanding bills that they did not know about because they did not incur them.

There was a case in England where there were people on the street being interviewed for some survey. People were asked for some personal information that a criminal would want and nine out of ten people provided that information. I would ask Canadians not to be naive about what can happen and to be very careful with their personal information.

Facebook contains a lot of information, and I hope everyone will join my Facebook account, but I would ask Canadians to be very careful not to give out personal information that criminals could use on areas like a Facebook account or a personal website.

When one is asked to go to a website for something, it might appear very legitimate, like a big bank or a major corporation that has a good name, but it could easily be a counterfeit website. Criminals make up counterfeit websites. They put in a company logo and when Canadians log on they get these pieces of information, which is all they need.

The minister was asked what effect this would have on companies that are not protecting people's information. I would implore Canadian companies, small and large businesses, to ensure they are taking the right provisions to protect Canadians. If nine out of every one hundred Canadians are being affected, those could be their employees. If the information comes from their company, they could be sued for thousands of dollars.

There was a study done that suggests that it costs businesses 15 times more to deal with the problems caused by information being stolen from them or having escaped from them inadvertently. That is 15 times more in costs to companies ultimately to deal with all those problems than had they encrypted the information in the first place.

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Individuals managing companies or individuals at home must remember that information, such as their birthdate, social insurance number or address, is like cash. To criminals, this information is worth far more than the cash in their pocket. This information must be protected.

The thousands of individuals who have gone through those types of incidents can contact www.phonebusters.com or they can call the toll free number 1-888-495-8501 if they feel a criminal has taken their information. For a much more detailed outline of what steps individuals and businesses should take, they can go to the Privacy Commissioner's website.

Over and above individuals being more vigilant at home and businesses being more vigilant, we need tougher penalties to deal with the people who are stealing this kind of personal information for criminal purposes.

A December 2007Vancouver Sun article told the story of a woman who had her driver's licence and cheque stolen from her mail. The cheque was cashed in September 2006 but nothing else happened until April 2007 when another cheque went missing and was subsequently cashed. Bank accounts were opened in her name and charges were incurred. MoneyMart was after her for fraudulent cheques that had been cashed. More than $2,000 worth of Shopping Channel goods were purchased on her husband's credit card. This person spent countless hours dealing with credit bureaus and, to date, is still fighting charges on the Capital One card. She had to have all her mail forwarded to her work address which is not convenient because she will be starting maternity leave soon. After doing a lot of legwork, she obtained a photo of the thief but she and her husband are still having problems.

Not only does a person have to pay thousands of dollars of debt that was built up by the criminal but an incredible amount of time is involved in trying to clear his or her name.

At the airport I spoke with a person whose cheque had been misused and the person could not get on the plane. Once people get into these kinds of problems, they get blacklisted and are not allowed on planes. We all know how long it takes to solve those types of problems.

Some people can use another person's name to rent an apartment and then use the apartment for producing drugs or for hiding stolen goods. When the deception is discovered, the criminal vanishes and the innocent person becomes the criminal and becomes faced with huge complications trying to clear his or her name, which is an awful process.

As I said, we in the Liberal Party support the provisions of Bill C-27 because we want people who steal identities to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Suggestions have been made that more things need to be done and we will also be pursuing those.

I would like to quote from an editorial in The London Free Press on November 25, 2007:

'It's not enough to make these activities criminal,' Philippa Lawson, director of the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic at the University of Ottawa told CP.

'Criminals will always find ways to take advantage of innocent citizens,' Lawson said. 'We need to take other, equally important steps such as creating incentives for companies and governments to take appropriate security measures, empowering individuals so that they can more effectively protect themselves, enforcing data protection laws, and assisting victims recover their financial reputations'.

We will be pushing for even more strength in this legislation. As I said, close to a year ago our Liberal leader brought this forward and encouraged the government to act on it.

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It has even occurred to a member of this House, the member for Saskatoon—Wanuskewin. There is an article in the paper. Again this is the reason we are pushing so hard for this. His identity was stolen last year and someone racked up more than $6,000 in charges before a collection agency came calling. It took months to clear his name and his credit card record, although he is expected to jump through hoops as the result of his social insurance number being red-flagged by the government.

One distressing thing that he suggested in the article was that the government would not be accepting much in the way of amendments to this law. It was a little distressing in that there have already been suggestions from police and other organizations of things that need to be done. It is distressing that we cannot strengthen the protection for Canadians regarding identity theft, if as members of the committee that is what we hear and there are suggestions. Hopefully, the member was not speaking for the minister, but I did not get a chance to ask that question.

I will quote from a speech given in Toronto on March 14, 2007 by the leader of the Liberal Party:

To protect Canadian seniors, we will act on the recommendations of the Privacy Commissioner to address the problem of identity theft. There were almost 8,000 reports of identity theft in the past year, resulting in more than $16 million being lost, much of it taken from vulnerable seniors. A lifetime of hard work and savings can vanish in an instant. We need tougher laws to prevent this type of crime.

Another recommendation is that we need laws implementing the recommendations of the federal Task Force on Spam—recommendations that have so far been ignored by the Conservatives. Spam is the weapon of choice for identity thieves, who use phony e-mails to trick people into revealing personal information. Canada is the only G-8 country without anti-spam legislation, and a Liberal government led by me will change that.

This bill would create three new offences, all subject to five year maximum sentences: obtaining and possessing identity information with the intent to use it to commit certain crimes; trafficking in identity information with the knowledge of, or recklessness as to its intended use in the commission of a certain crime; and unlawfully possessing and trafficking in government issued identity documents.

Also the Criminal Code amendments would create new offences of fraudulently redirecting or causing redirection of a person's mail; possessing a counterfeit Canada Post mail key; and possessing instruments for copying credit card information, which the minister mentioned in his speech, in addition to the existing offences of possessing instruments for forging credit cards.

We want to go even further to make sure that the police have the technical ability to investigate this type of crime with all the modern electronic means available to them. As the minister said, we want to catch up. I was glad the minister said he would look at the bill. I was sad that he did not say that he would endorse it right away to help the police, but hopefully that will be the conclusion he makes.

I would like to discuss further at committee whether the penalty should be stronger if the identity theft is related to organized crime or terrorism. It should be very significant.

In conclusion, it has been our policy for a long time to support stronger provisions in this area. At committee we want the police and other expert witnesses to provide evidence. If there is any way we can strengthen the bill, we will be looking at that too.

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Mrs. Carole Freeman (Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak at second reading of Bill C-27 , An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity theft and related misconduct).

I believe it is important to debate this matter. With the development of new technologies, we are all confronted, at one point or another, with a situation where we have to identify ourselves by using personal information. For example, we use PINs when doing our banking at an ATM. Just imagine the amount of personal data and the number of financial transactions circulating on the Internet every day. Do we know how businesses and governments manage their immense data bases that contain our personal information? These issues affect everyone, without exception. Our personal information is recorded, catalogued and stored somewhere.

Attempted identity theft is a common occurrence. A thief could find a useful document in your mail. He could use it to pass for you and commit crimes in your name. Scam artists steal names, addresses, and birth dates that they use to apply for loans and credit cards or to open bank accounts in your name. Imagine the damage they could do using your name, not to mention the serious consequences for your reputation and self esteem.

That is why identity theft is a security issue that cannot be ignored. This type of fraud will only grow with the passing of time. Those watching us surely know someone who has been a victim of identity theft. It has disastrous consequences for the victim. It can even lead to misunderstandings with the law because fraudsters can commit crimes and use the identity of their victims. How does an individual whose identity has been stolen prove to the police or government organizations that they were not the one who committed the crime of which they are accused? It is an almost impossible task.

Bill C-27 would curb identify theft by cracking down on the unauthorized collection and use of personal information for illegal purposes. This includes the possession of several private identifiers, such as a name, address, social insurance number, or any personal number that could be used to obtain a service. Bill C-27 would create three new offences that could be punishable by a maximum of five years in prison.

The first offence deals with obtaining and possessing identity information to commit a crime. The second deals with trafficking this personal information and targets individuals who sell or deliberately hand over this information to a third party, knowing that it could be used illegally. The third deals with individuals possessing or trafficking another person's government-issued identity documents.

I remind members that thieves obtain personal information in different ways. Some use direct means, such as highly sophisticated phishing techniques. The RCMP says that criminals also use e-mails or websites that look official, but falsely represent legitimate businesses, financial institutions and government agencies. The goal is to obtain sensitive, personal financial information by phishing the person who receives the e-mail. The public must constantly be vigilant against this type of fraud. This is why people must always be careful when giving out their personal information. They should also find out how their information will be used, why it is being collected, who will view the information and how the information will be protected.

Getting back to Bill C-27, it makes several changes to the Criminal Code in order to curb identity theft. It also creates offences for redirecting mail, the possession of a counterfeit mail key, the possession of instruments for copying credit card data, and the possession of or trafficking in counterfeit documents. In addition, Bill C-27 clarifies the meaning of “personating a person” and renames the offence of “personation” to “identity theft”. It gives the courts a new power to order that, as part of the sentence, the offender make restitution to a victim of identity theft or identity fraud for the expenses associated with rehabilitating their identity.

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Finally, the only people exempted are those who make false documents for covert government operations or who allow public officers to create and use covert identities in the exercise of their duties—meaning here law enforcement personnel.

Bill C-27 is intended to keep up with today’s realities because in the near future the identity theft problem is only going to get worse. It is imperative, therefore, to update the Criminal Code and adapt it to current realities as well as possible. According to the Department of Public Safety, identity theft has become one of the fastest growing kinds of crime in Canada and the United States.

I should emphasize, though, that we should be concerned not just about the increase in this kind of crime but also about the costs that we collectively incur as a direct result of this illicit activity.

The Canadian Council of Better Business Bureaus estimated that in 2002 alone, consumers, banks, credit card companies, stores and other businesses lost $2.5 billion as a result of identity theft. According to the RCMP, the total losses due just to credit card fraud in 2003 amounted to $200 million. The complaints filed with the Phone Busters program of the RCMP and the Competition Bureau provide a good example of the social cost of identity theft. Just in 2006, more than $16 million were stolen from Canadians by fraudsters. Phone Busters estimates, though, that this is still just a small percentage of the real losses due to fraud, perhaps about 5%.

Considering individual human beings, we must remember that victims of identity theft are often left with a compromised credit rating and a messy personal and financial situation. Everyone is affected, without exception.

I remember an Ipsos Reid poll in 2006 according to which one-quarter of Canadians or about 5.7 million people said that they had been victimized by identity theft or knew someone who had been. These figures are very telling and clearly demonstrate the need to update the Criminal Code.

However, we are faced with a fundamental problem: Criminal Code offences were defined at the time with the traditional notion of property. The big problem with identity theft is that personal information is not considered property. To apply the provisions of the Criminal Code, there needs to be a direct causal link with an economic loss or serious harm.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to prove that a crime has been committed in the case of identity theft. Although some 40 provisions of the Criminal Code can apply to identity theft, the fact remains that the simple possession and collection of personal information does not constitute a crime. In this case, the Criminal Code becomes a cumbersome tool for fighting identity theft. Its evidence rules are quite strict as well.

On May 8, 2007, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Jennifer Stoddart, summed up the legal problem with identity theft quite well at the Standing Committee on Access to Information. She said:

I don't think it's just an issue of the Criminal Code. As you know, our law administrators hesitate to use the Criminal Code: the standards of proof are higher, and the charter may apply, and so very often you have to have a fairly clear-cut case to use the Criminal Code.

Bill C-27 is obviously a step in the right direction to updating the Criminal Code, but I want to reiterate that part of solution would definitely come from concerted action involving the different levels of government, private organizations and the public. Other measures will have to be implemented to effectively fight identity theft, since this is a broad issue that goes beyond the government's capabilities.

For example, the Privacy Commissioner suggested using civil sanctions instead of the Criminal Code for two main reasons: proof is easier to establish, and the procedures are easier for the public to understand.

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Appropriately, the commissioner gave the example of small claims court, which could offer easily accessible ways to discourage the growing industry of identity theft.

However, the idea presupposes that the federal government will work closely with the provinces, because much of what is happening in the area of identity theft comes under provincial jurisdiction. I would remind this House that a number of solutions to the problem of identity theft are in the provinces' hands, because they have constitutional authority over property and civil rights, specifically under section 92, subsection 13, on property.

However, this minority government still has a long way to go in this area. True to form, this government, which should be working with the provinces to combat identity theft, preferred to make a few changes to the Criminal Code that do little to address the problem. Before giving the provinces new responsibilities for enforcing the Criminal Code, did the government make sure they had the resources to enforce the new provisions on identity theft?

The government should try leading by example when it comes to protecting and managing personal information. The federal government is proposing to penalize people who make fraudulent use of identity documents such as social insurance cards. Yet in June 2006, we learned that the Auditor General estimated there were 2.9 million more social insurance numbers in circulation than the estimated number of Canadians aged 30 and over. It makes you wonder.

What is more, in September 2003, six computers were stolen from the Laval offices of the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, including a laptop containing personal information on 120,000 taxpayers and 600 federal taxation employees. I am dismayed by the government's behaviour, which tells me that a number of practices need to be reviewed.

Several federal departments and agencies are interested in identity theft, but these efforts do not seem to have produced a concerted strategy for dealing with this enormous problem. Nonetheless, identity theft is an issue that the federal government cannot tackle on its own, but this should not stop the federal government from developing a more focused strategy for channeling its efforts.

It would also be worth having better definitions of the concepts that identity theft involves. Although the subject has received a great deal of attention from the media, academics, enforcement agencies and government, there is still debate over the definition of identity theft. The term is used to include everything from simple cases of fraud when someone forges a cheque or uses a stolen credit card to purchase goods to very sophisticated cases of “synthetic identity theft” where the impostor creates a new identity using a combination of actual information and fabricated personal information.

Similarly, we do not have a clear idea of the sources of the personal information being used. Some studies have suggested that much of the information comes from within organizations; other studies claim that identity theft is usually perpetrated by people who are known to the victims. Media stories about large scale data breaches in which laptops have been lost or hackers have been able to gain access to credit card information have become commonplace, but we do not have a clear picture of how often these data breaches result in identity theft.

I would nonetheless point out that Canada has privacy legislation that places limits on the collection, use and disclosure of personal information by the private sector. It requires organizations to protect the information they collect. There are several provisions in the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA) which, if the organizations covered by the Act respect those provisions, can significantly reduce the risk of identity theft.

That Act also imposes limits on how long organizations engaged in commercial activities should retain personal information. By getting rid of information they no longer need, organizations reduce the risk of identity theft. But the destruction process must involve more than throwing paper records or hard drives into the nearest dumpster, as we have seen happen.

I would conclude by saying that the Bloc Québécois will support Bill C-27 on second reading so that it can be sent to committee. Nonetheless, I, like my colleagues, strongly believe that merely amending the Criminal Code will not be sufficient to solve the identity theft problem.

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Other measures will have to be developed by the various governments to combat this problem. One that we are proposing is that the public be educated in order to reduce victimization. Educating people about how to protect themselves against identity thieves is another key element to fighting this kind of fraud. As well, strengthening the regulations to provide more stringent oversight of how personal information is managed by businesses can only be a good thing.

As a final point, measures to promote greater uniformity and security in the process of issuing and verifying identification documents seem to be essential.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her support of the bill. I am delighted she agrees with the Liberals that more needs to be done.

Could she elaborate a bit on what more can be done by the government to support individuals who may encounter theft, or more support or regulations that can be established related to businesses and governments, as the member said, where there have been problems related to information leaking out?

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Mrs. Carole Freeman:

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his question. As I said in my speech, the identity theft problem is huge and international. Incidentally, the steps that the minister announced today are a step in the right direction.

As well-intentioned as these measures might be, they are of only limited effectiveness. If we really want to get at the problem of identity theft, we will also have to work with all the representatives of organizations and provinces since many matters fall under provincial jurisdiction.

Moreover, there are different kinds of identity theft, such as petty theft and theft by organized crime, as the minister said. When tackling organized syndicates on the Internet, it will be necessary to have international regulations and a concerted international effort.

We will need a concerted effort because the identity theft problem is only going to increase. The rise of the Internet and new technologies means that the problem cannot be solved simply by adding sections to the Canadian Criminal Code. The problem is much bigger than that.

First there is the concerted effort needed on the federal level. Then there are a lot of regulations, although they are not necessarily protected or used enough.

We must first use and protect the data we have. In my speech I pointed out deficiencies within the federal government and the data losses we have seen. Concrete action is needed, specifically better management.

In addition, a concerted effort is needed from the federal and provincial governments and the governments of other countries in order to get a better handle on the problem of identity theft, which is often related to international organized crime.

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Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, when the bill is studied by the committee or the House in some other way, does the member believe we should look more closely at the distinction between the need to protect personal information, and there is a whole body of legislation that does this, and what we do now, which is the criminalization of the taking or theft of personal information, personal identity or documents that contain personal information or personal identity?

I notice the debate sometimes slides around between criminalization issues involving the trafficking or theft of personal information and the concept of simply protecting through other laws, and not criminal laws, the containment and conveyance of personal information in records. Has she noted that as an issue and does she think that should be an appropriate focus for the committee in the event the House accepts the bill and forwards it on to committee for review?

[Translation]

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Mrs. Carole Freeman:

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his question. He raised two interesting points.

There is a lot of talk these days about the criminalization of identity theft. My colleague emphasized this by asking whether there is already legislation to protect personal information. In my view, we should look instead at protecting databanks.

We should definitely crack down on the crimes that are committed, but most of all we need mechanisms to protect the data of agencies and businesses. There should be stricter protection of personal information in order to reduce the crime related to it.

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Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, in many respects Bill C-27 is classic in the sense that it is a reflection of the difficulty in modern times, and even to a somewhat lesser degree historically, of our legal system, in particular our criminal justice system, keeping up with advances in technology and in society of a scientific nature. We have seen what has become known as the crime of identity theft proliferate significantly over the last 10 to 15 years.

We heard today some figures from the Minister of Justice on not only what that costs the financial sector in particular, but also individuals. We are now into the billions of dollars. It is a situation in our society where we have to take it into our hands to try to exert a much greater control over this issue.

There are various ways of doing that, and Bill C-27 addresses a partial strategy and no more than a partial strategy.

My party has always looked at anti-social, criminal behaviour as an issue to be addressed by way of prevention to the maximum. Then, if we cannot prevent the anti-social or criminal behaviour, we move into the criminal justice arena and provide legislation that creates crimes and punishment that flow from the breach of the legislation. That is the approach we take whenever we address an issue like this.

There is no question that the provisions of Bill C-27 are all necessary. The NDP very much intends to support the bill. When it gets to committee, we will be looking at ways to see if there is any manner of strengthening it.

We have heard from police forces, including the RCMP and local police forces, of the need for these provisions, which are all amendments to the Criminal Code.

To be very clear and not in any way mislead the Canadian public, these provisions are all reactive. They are to be used when the crime has already been committed, whether it is creating some new offences around identity theft or renaming the personation section to identity theft and identity fraud, or attacking, and this is very important, the production of data and making that a crime. All those are important sections to deal with that conduct, but again I emphasize it is after the fact. It is after a crime has been committed and individuals in our society and institutions have suffered negative consequences.

We have heard the horror stories in that respect of the way it grossly disrupts the lives of people when their identities are used fraudulently in a criminal fashion. It causes them great financial losses in a lot of cases. It also puts them through the emotional turmoil while they rebuild their identification. Dealing with the debt that has been accumulated in their name can cause great havoc to the individual.

On the institutional side, it is humongous, and the minister has mentioned financial losses. It is very disruptive. The bill is important from that perspective.

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When I questioned the minister earlier today, I raised the fact that the government had not brought forward any proposals and certainly no legislation to prevent access to databases to regulate the security around those databases, whether it was by way of policy within the federal government, or by way of legislation, or regulatory functions under other legislation, under our consumer legislation, our privacy laws and our access to information laws. There are a number of other laws where we could implement a regulatory framework that would prevent easy access to our databases.

Imagine people of a criminal bent wanting to steal the identities of people. They can do that by following people around, or collecting their mail, or watching them at debit machines, or going to their place of work, or stealing their cheque book. There are a number of ways to do this but they are only getting one person's identity. It is an endeavour that has to take place and we know it happens. There is an alternative to that. What happens more and more and why we see this huge increase in identity theft is that organized crime targets databases to get the personal identifications of thousands of individuals in one fell swoop.

Recently I talked to some of our local police in the Windsor area about this. What happens is that data is sold on the Internet, kind of an eBay purchase, to other individuals who will then use that personal identification to take money out of bank accounts, use credit cards, the whole gamut of criminality that goes on. Those trades happen on a regular basis. Getting access to a large database is important for that network of trading to function.

I heard my colleague from the Bloc mention the need for international cooperation. A good deal of this is happening in countries, for example, in central and eastern Europe that have recently broken away from the Soviet empire where there are not strong enforcement mechanisms. I am told a good deal of that trading goes on in those countries.

There is a whole series of other work that needs to be done. In the overall volume of crimes around identity theft, I would argue they are more significant. If we can shut down that trading network, if we can shut down access to large databases, if we can get international cooperation to do that in other countries, we will be much more effective in shutting down large numbers of these crimes as opposed to going after the individual who steals another individual's identity.

Again, I am not downplaying the importance of the bill. It is necessary, but the government needs to step up to the plate and get serious about dealing with those other areas.

Other committees have looked at this issue. The industry committee has looked at it. The committee responsible for the privacy legislation has also looked at it. Recommendations have come to those committees of how to deal with some of these problems, where we focus almost exclusively under those legislations and amendments to legislation and the regulatory functions under those legislations to prevent access to these databases.

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This would go a great distance, but the government seems to be much more concerned about this bill exclusively. I suggest it is a mistake to limit its focus just on criminalizing this behaviour. I am not downplaying the importance of it, but it is nowhere near enough. In fact, it is the smaller part of the problem.

The solution to this problem lies much more in creating security around our databases and international cooperation to enforce policies along that line, rather than this more simple and limited approach to the bill.

As I have indicated, the NDP will support the bill at second reading. When it gets to committee, we will look at ways to see if it can be strengthened.

In that regard, I have heard some concerns from members of the Bar about the wording in some of the sections. The bill would make it a crime to be found in possession of a substantial body of personal identification coupled with a reasonable inference of intent to commit a crime. “Reasonable inference” is used elsewhere in the code, but in a somewhat different context. There is some worry about whether that wording will provide, because of its vagueness, enough of a defence for that section to be used to acquire convictions.

We will need to look at this type of wording at the committee to see if there is any way we can strengthen it. We hope to hear from both our prosecutors and our police forces to see if there are any additional suggestions they have to perhaps augment the bill and strengthen it some more. Unless we see ways of strengthening it, I am quite convinced the justice committee will approve the bill, hopefully with some minor tinkering, and send it back for third reading and final approval in the House.

I hope also that in the course of the hearings before the justice committee more information will come out about the need for other endeavours that will be more productive and prevent more of these crimes. If so, we also may be able to recommend to the full House additional work that needs to be done.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I always enjoy hearing the member's very thoughtful perspectives on the various crime bills in the justice committee.

I have four questions, but I will ask them one at a time in case other people have questions.

Some of our recent bills have created harsher sentences when the crime was related to organized crime or terrorism. Does the member think there is any merit in considering that at committee, for instance if an identity is stolen to use in the commission of a terrorist offence?

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Mr. Joe Comartin:

Mr. Speaker, there are potentially two answers to that.

I quite frankly believe we should have and should in the future include that kind of criminal conduct of a terrorist nature under the organized crime section and go after that kind of criminal activity using this section. We need to expand the definition somewhat.

However, if it is traditional organized crime activity, I am not sure we need to do anything further. If we find identity theft is promulgated by the activity of an organized crime syndicate or gang, we should lay charges that these individuals are part of organized crime. That then opens up this whole section of the code to be used against them, including the reverse onus to seize their assets. Therefore, I do not think we really need to do anything further with regard to that.

The same would not be true if it were an organized effort of a gang around terrorist activity, so we may very well look at it. I prefer initially that the definition of organized crime should include this group, and then we would use it in the same fashion.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell:

Mr. Speaker, I think the Bloc and the NDP both agree with the Liberals that more needs to be done. I wonder if the member could elaborate on what could be done to support individuals who have been victimized, to support businesses in improving their systems, or with regulations to improve systems to prevent the theft, as he pointed out at the beginning.

Could he also elaborate on my concern about a government member's suggestion that there could not be many amendments? The member has already suggested a potentially important amendment.

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Mr. Joe Comartin:

In reverse order, Mr. Speaker, on the idea of amendments I do not see this bill, that is, the Criminal Code as a whole, being able to deal with some of the other policy and legislative changes that are needed in other legislation, in consumer legislation and corporate commercial legislation, or in policy within government. Those issues that we have raised around this in regard to regulating and trying to provide greater security to our databases would have to be dealt with outside the Criminal Code, which is just not the mechanism for dealing with it.

In terms of other and more straightforward amendments, I have never let the attempt of intimidation by the government to say we are going to have a confidence motion over bills prevent me from bringing forth amendments. I think that is just silly on the part of the government.

As we saw even in Bill C-2, the omnibus bill around dangerous offenders, there were actually a couple of minor amendments that went through because it was obvious even to the government at that point that they were needed.

However, I think the point I was making about looking at trying to strengthen the wording around reasonable inference is one that is going to have to be closely looked at. If we can come up with better wording, I am expecting that the minister in his wisdom will ignore the PMO and allow us to have the amendments.

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Hon. Larry Bagnell:

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned during my speech, the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine has a bill to increase the ability of the police to use modern electronic methods, which they do not have access to now, to help deal with this type of crime. I am hoping the member would be able to seriously consider that type of improvement as well.

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Mr. Joe Comartin:

Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the member for Yukon. I did not respond to that. It is a very good point.

This is interesting. There are technologies out there that screen out the hackers. We know we can build greater firewalls in regard to allowing people access. A number of the smaller financial institutions in particular have some difficulty in being able to afford that or in fact in even knowing what they need to do. There is work that the federal government could be doing to provide standards and perhaps technology.

In that respect, I want to just mention what happened around child pornography. Paul Gillespie, who was in Toronto at the time trying to deal with it, got so frustrated that he wrote Bill Gates a letter saying they could develop technology that could track backwards the child porn they were finding on their PCs in Toronto but it was going to cost money. He asked if Bill Gates could help.

He got an instantaneous response from Gates. They built the software package. It is one that is now being used across the globe, at least in all the developed countries. Gates put in $6 million or $8 million using his staff and his resources. This type of assistance that is now available to our police forces, which is not expensive because it just means getting the software, has been very useful in the fight against child pornography.

The same thing could be done in this area. We may need to develop more technology both to protect the databases and to trace back the hackers who break in and get the information.

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Mr. Derek Lee (Scarborough—Rouge River, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to speak to this piece of legislation today, as apparently a lot of members are. It looks like in its current state this has support from around the House. If it stays that way, it looks like the bill will be going to committee. Hopefully the committee will have an opportunity to deal with it expeditiously, to get it back to the House and finally to get it passed.

This is one of these areas in criminal legislation, and I suppose in all legislation, where the legislation comes into being after the criminal mind has already found a way to criminalize, to steal and to commit fraud. This particular area of information, personal identity, gives us a new type of crime in the sense that in the expanding universe of information and the increasingly complex universe of financial transactions there is a bigger playing field for the criminal mind.

This is just such a case. The legislation that now is being proposed attempts to cover off for society by criminalizing, prohibiting and proscribing certain types of conduct that we regard as anti-social and harmful. Most people would ask why we could not have passed this law 10 or 20 years ago. The reason probably is that we in the House do not all have criminal minds that would lead us to get our heads out in front of this, nor do all the great employees of the Department of Justice have that penchant for thinking like criminals. Usually we are in this position where we legislate after the initial harm, after the crimes of opportunity have been done by the criminals.

In this particular field of personal information, theft of personal identity and the use of that type of information for fraud and other crimes, I again want to point out for the record, and I made some comments on this a few minutes ago, that it is important to distinguish between recognizing and defining the whole field of personal information and taking steps to protect it in data banks, personal records and government records, and another area, which is the application of the Criminal Code to criminalize certain things that happen in relation to personal information.

There was a private member's bill in the last session, and I think even also in the last Parliament, with attempts by members to create legislation that would protect personal information, but inevitably the clash between protecting the information and criminalizing certain types of conduct produced a kind of incompatibility. I recall one bill that would have criminalized the act by a university student of trying to get a phone number and an address of some other student just for the purpose of having a date on Saturday night. That particular type of legislation did not distinguish between the two. It went too far.

As we legislate here now, I think this bill has it just about right. We have identified the actual criminal intentions that we want to proscribe. We have not touched what would be an ordinary layman's use of personal information or attempts to get personal information, although the bill comes close to it and we have to keep our eye on that line.

This particular area is sometimes complex because it is a new and developing area. It is a bit of a moving target. In the world of the Internet and the globalization of information, the target of what is personal information, what is financial information and what are other types of information is always changing, and the focal point changes right around the world.

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Data banks are not necessarily in one location. They are in different countries. The data is transferred through land lines, satellites and service providers, land-based and otherwise. It is an exceedingly complex area. I hope Canadians will feel that our House of Commons and our Department of Justice are keeping up with this.

The personal information that we try to protect is out there in so many places. A couple of years ago, I noted how much junk data is on a website called Wikipedia. That particular website purports to be an information site, but apparently anybody can load up information of any sort. The information is not screened. It can be false or inaccurate information.

That particular website is simply not what it appears to be. It contains false and misleading information filled with innuendo. At least if it were a tabloid, it could be sued, and it would take responsibility for what it published in terms of libel laws, but boy, on the Internet that is tough. I just mention Wikipedia. It seems to be a group of rogue dot-commers trafficking in junk information, which sometimes includes personal information.

This legislation of course does not attempt to deal with the dodos in that type of junk information, but it does try to protect the personal identities of Canadians.

About two weeks ago, a staffer at my Scarborough office in Scarborough--Rouge River was a little nervous. She came into my office saying that we had an email addressed to me personally and it looked kind of strange. She gave it to me gently and I looked at it. The email was asking me to confirm that I had made a particular purchase on my credit card. I do not know what the purchase was, but it was for a couple of hundred dollars. It so happens that I do not have the particular credit card that was named in the email.

Since this was the first time such an incident had happened, my staffer attached significance to the receipt of that email, thinking it was real, accurate, bona fide and important and there was some kind of problem with my financial transactions. Since I did not have the type of credit card referred to in the email, I knew immediately that it was part of a scam. I guess the company was inviting me to get back to it, say it was not my purchase because it was not my credit card, and then the company would ask me what credit card I did have. I would say that I had another one and the company would ask to verify that.

This happened to me two weeks in my constituency office, which the taxpayers pay for, and it was the first time this type of thing happened to me. This type of potential scam, this fishing expedition, is all over the place. I am sure that anything we can do here to try to protect innocent Canadians from this type of scamming would be appreciated. I would appreciate it. So would my staff and my constituents.

I have mentioned the clash between the protection of personal information and the criminalization of the use of it. In relation to that, I noted other bills that tried to criminalize the use or passing on of personal information without the consent of the person. There were some areas that I thought we should make sure to protect, but as it turns out we do not have to do very much because this bill has been re-targeted at particular criminal acts.

Those previous bills contained the concept of a person seeking personal information. I mentioned the university student looking for a name and a phone number for a date. There are also people promoting a charity who are looking for a name, phone number or address. They are looking to solicit a charitable donation. Someone might be doing it to promote a religion, a religious faith, or, and listen up colleagues, somebody might be doing it for political purposes. These are all normal pursuits that we generally accept. We accept that people promoting their interests, their groups, their societies or their community associations will seek out names and addresses of people they would like to approach.

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We have to make sure that we do not impose a chill on our communications and social intercourse in our communities in an overreaction to the potential criminality that is out there. This bill does not come very close to that, but it is an area that I will be looking at as we scrutinize this at committee.

The Department of Justice has used the bill to fine tune some existing legislation. The bill proposes arguably three new types of offences, but in fine tuning the existing legislation we actually create and broaden some existing offences. It has been done in a good way. I think it all fits fairly well. Some existing legislation has been altered to make prosecution, conviction and investigation a little easier and a little clearer so that we do not have to rely on the conspiracy laws in the Criminal Code.

An example is the offence of theft from the mail. The proposed legislation expands the class of mail that is protected from theft. Most people think that if someone steals something from the mail, it is an offence, and it always has been. One of the areas that was never clear was after the mailman had delivered the mail to a house or business. It could be put in a mail slot and the mail would drop onto the floor. The mailman could put the mail in a mailbox on the front of the house or business, or it could be left inside the door. Nowadays Canada Post has neighbourhood mailboxes not connected to a residence. People have to walk across the street or a couple of hundred yards to pick up their mail. After the mailman delivers the mail to that box, is the mail still protected? Is that theft from the mail?

After the mailman puts it through the door slot, is that mail still in the course of mail? In previous interpretations, it was not. Once the mailman delivered the mail into the box or through the slot, the mail had been delivered and apparently the mail was not protected by the mail theft statute. It was still protected by the theft statute, but not mail theft. After that letter is in the house and is put on the kitchen table in so many homes, if taken, would that still be theft from the mail?

The solution is a rather good one. It does not clarify everything but the amendment is that everyone commits an offence who steals “any thing sent by post, after it is deposited at a post office and before it is delivered, or after it is delivered but before it is in the possession of the addressee or of a person who may reasonably be considered to be authorized by the addressee to receive mail”.

If one is really well off and has a butler, and the mailman delivers the mail to the butler at the front door, that is delivery. If it is just put in the mailbox, from the point of view of the post office, that is a completed delivery, but our Criminal Code is going to continue to still protect that letter until it is in the possession of the addressee or the addressee's representative. That is a good change. That does not have anything to do with the Internet. That just is a good common sense change to protect our mail the way most Canadians would want it protected.

The bill has a number of other technical changes referring to pieces of equipment, government identity cards, government documents and even identity documentation issued by the provinces. I am sure it is constitutional. Documents produced by a province or the federal government that are stolen, used, or just simple theft of them is an offence.

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Now the use of them in fraud, impersonation and pretending to be somebody the person is not for the purpose of stealing, fraud, theft and deceit is better and more clearly criminalized. This will allow better investigation, better prosecution, more appropriate convictions, better sentencing and hopefully a bit better order in an area that has needed some legislative amendment and updating.

Having said all of that, I am certain we will be back in this House five or six years from now to update this type of legislation again, because as I said, the target is always moving. As the technical and information universe expands, we may well see other areas that need amendment and improvement.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to listen to my colleague who has a lot of experience in these areas in following the justice bills and so on.

Given the increasing concern that many of us have with identity theft and the fact that we are hearing of people's mortgages changing hands by people getting copies of pertinent information, what else needs to be done in this piece of legislation to make it closer to being bullet proof and to make it tougher and tighter?

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Derek Lee:

Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question. I do not think we will be issuing a written guarantee with the bill that it will cover absolutely everything. As we deal with this bill, I am sure there is a criminal mind out there trying to figure out a way to slide something through the existing net of legislation so that he or she will not get caught and charged.

The member has raised a very good reference point. This bill will do a whole lot to better protect the class of Canadian that she has described, but it does not address the financial implications directly. If a fraud is committed, the money is lost or the money is diverted.

The hon. member mentioned mortgage fraud. I know that criminals have found a way to do mortgage fraud. This usually involves a fairly large amount of money. It is not a $100 item. A mortgage is usually for $50,000, $100,000, $200,000, $300,000 and even more. They have found a way to manipulate the provincial land registration system in a way that allows a mortgage lender to be defrauded using a personal identity. I have a case in my constituency office involving just that. A lady is working her way back after two court cases. She has done a great job. She had to hire a lawyer once.

It is just awful that Canadians are put in this position. The Canadian victim will bear the burden of making the information correct and there will be allegations that the Canadian has borrowed the money under the mortgage. In the end it is usually provable that the individual did not, that it was a scam and it is the financial institution that would normally bear that liability.

There were occasions in the province of Ontario where the first response of the government of Ontario was that it would not change its law. A buyer for value in due course, which is a legal principle, of a piece of real estate, without notice of a fraud, is able to buy the land and does not have to bear the responsibility. People have had their registered property sold out from under them by a scam and they were not aware of it. This is usually a case where the owner of the real estate does not live on the real estate. It is tentative in some way.

Eventually, I am informed, the government of Ontario decided to change its law, change its policy, and the innocent victims of these scams are now apparently to be believed and they can get their land back, or they do not lose it.

The law two or three years ago was such that individual Canadians who were scammed had to bear the brunt of it. Now as I understand it, it would be the financial institution which has been defrauded that would bear the brunt of it and not the individual Canadian whose identity was used to perpetrate the fraud.

These things are still working their way through the courts and there are many different scenarios. The short answer to my friend's question is that the bill goes a long way to regularize and patch up the law, but there are still some open areas involving not criminal law, but civil law and the law governing financial transactions and mortgages that still may need some repair.

(1335)

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I have three questions, so I will be rising twice more if no one else has questions, provided there is time.

My first question is on the same topic of mortgages. A person can get a mortgage from the bank for, as the member said, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and walk away, but that person was not the real owner of the house and the person who owns the house would then have a huge debt.

A constituent suggested that an easy way to solve this problem is to make it mandatory that a photo be taken of everyone who gets a mortgage. I wonder what the member thinks of that solution from one of my constituents.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Derek Lee:

Mr. Speaker, that is a great suggestion. The laws governing obtaining a mortgage and a loan are provincial in this country. The federal government has a couple of laws that affect that area but in general the law of mortgages and hypothèques in Quebec are governed by the laws of the province.

The provinces are very unlikely to pass a law that says if there is a financial transaction there has to be a photo. As I understand it their laws are heavily weighted and biased in imposing the burdens on the financial institutions to know their clients and with whom they are dealing.

I know that financial institutions, because of these recent incidents, are taking steps to make sure that they visually know the borrower, visually check the land, visually check the tenant, and have people do this to ensure that they know exactly what is going on and that it is not a scam.

Whether or not a photo should be a part of the file, I do not know. What if it is a corporate borrower? How are they going to take a picture of a corporation? However, the member has the right idea. I think the financial institutions are taking appropriate steps.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Larry Bagnell:

Mr. Speaker, I quoted recently a member from the government side, the member for Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, in a newspaper article who suggested the government would accept very few amendments to the bill. Since that was a gratuitous and unnecessary comment, I would not normally bring it up if this was the only incident.

However, the member is a very effective, knowledgeable and wise member of the justice committee. I am sure he would have viewed times when this sort of lack of democratic input has prohibited the justice committee from doing its work.

Why would we hear witnesses and try to improve bills and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of parliamentary time if we could not make amendments? I wonder if the member, with his decades of experience in the House of Commons, has any comments as to whether this is correct or an unusual situation.

(1340)

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Derek Lee:

Mr. Speaker, committees of course, as the member well knows, are creatures of the House. They take their orders from the House and not from any particular member.

On the issue of amending bills, there were two or three instances in this Parliament in the previous session when in the justice committee there were material amendments made by the committee to the bill. Some of the government members found that difficult.

I think in speaking about amending bills the member is probably thinking about material changes to a bill. This could happen again at the committee with other bills, but I think with this bill there seems to be around the circle support for the bill. The only types of amendments that I would envision at this time are really just technical common sense amendments that would be consensual with all the parties. I do not anticipate that kind of a problem with this bill.

In some other criminal legislation areas, we never know. The committee will do what it feels it must.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Carole Lavallée (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address Bill C-27, dealing with identity theft.

In May 2007, the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics undertook a study on identity theft. At the time, we began to hear witnesses and look at this issue, because it is a serious problem. This issue directly affects individuals, but it also has an impact on our cities, our nation, our country, and even at the international level.

In fact, Canada is the only G-8 member that has not yet legislated against spams, which are often used for identity theft purposes. Some countries point to Canada as a haven for spammers. So, it was time to take action in this area.

It goes without saying that the Bloc supports the principle of the bill. As I just mentioned, identity theft is a very serious issue. We have to modernize the Criminal Code to reflect the reality of identity theft.

When she appeared before our committee, on May 8, Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart said that, in her opinion, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, which was implemented six years ago “is not a tool that, alone, enables us to combat this phenomenon, even if this legislation imposes restrictions on the collection of data. The safeguard principle permits the secure and confidential holding of personal information. It also makes it possible to limit the time during which information may be kept, as well as the number of persons who have access to it.”

However, as Ms. Stoddart pointed out, this is not enough, and this is why an act on identity theft is a welcome initiative.

According to Ms. Stoddart, concerted action by the different levels of government is required. The Bloc Québécois is not alone to say so. Let me quote her again. She suggested that “the federal government has to work closely with the provinces, because a lot of what happens in terms of ID theft falls within provincial jurisdiction”.

Provincial jurisdiction does not mean only certain fields of responsibility. We are really talking about the jurisdiction of the provinces or that of the Quebec nation, because Quebeckers have jurisdiction over the management of their fields of responsibility. Ms. Stoddart gives the example of those people who have had their houses sold out from underneath them. That is something that falls entirely within the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces.

Generally speaking, this Conservative government appears to be incapable of working in cooperation with Quebec and the provinces. Examples of this would be the aid package for the manufacturing and forestry sectors and the implementation of the Kyoto protocol.

The Bloc Québécois recognizes that amending the Criminal Code will not be enough to eliminate identity theft. More measures will have to be put in place by governments, including: public information to reduce victimization; regulations to provide a better framework for the management, storage and disposal of information by companies; and measures to ensure greater standardization and security in the process for issuing and verifying identity documents. The federal government has a crummy track record in terms of the management of personal information. It will have to set an example, but I will come back to that later.

The purpose of this bill is to curb identity theft, that is the unauthorized use of personal information generally obtained for criminal purposes. Information such as someone's name, date of birth, address, credit card number, social insurance number or any other personal identification number can be used to open a bank account, apply for a credit card, get mail redirected, sign up for cellular phone services, rent a vehicle, equipment or premises, or even get a job.

Bill C-27 creates three new basic offences, and all of them carry a maximum penalty of five years.

The first one involves obtaining and possessing identity information with the intent to use it in a misleading, dishonest or fraudulent fashion to commit a crime.

The second offence, which involves trafficking in identity information, targets those who give or sell information to a third party, while being well aware that this information could be used for criminal purposes, or while not caring about it.

Finally, the third offence involves the unlawful possession or trafficking in government-issued identity documents that have the information pertaining to another person.

(1345)

Some witnesses confirmed to the committee that, under the Criminal Code, a person who copies—in a convenience store, a grocery store or some other business—a credit card or an automated teller card, does not commit an offence. Right now, it is very difficult to charge such a person for using personal information.

Bill C-27 will correct this situation. From now on, individuals in a business who copy a credit card or an automated teller card when someone gives it to them for a few moments will be liable to prosecution under the provisions of Bill C-27.

Bill C-27 also includes other changes to the Criminal Code. It creates a new offence for directly or indirectly redirecting someone's mail, for possessing a copy of a Canada Post key, and also additional forgery related offences, such as the trafficking in and possession of forged documents with the intent of using them. The bill also redefines the offence of personation with the notion of “identity fraud”; by specifying the meaning of the expression “fraudulently personates any person”; by adding the offence of possessing instruments for copying credit card data, in addition to the existing offence of possessing instruments for forging credit cards.

As I was saying earlier in reference to those individuals working in businesses who might copy a credit card or an automated teller card, this will now be an offence.

In addition, the bill introduces a new power that would enable the tribunal to order the offender, as part of the sentence, to make restitution to a victim of identity theft or identity fraud for the expenses associated with rehabilitating their identity, such as the cost of replacement documents and cards and costs related to correcting their credit history. This is extremely important because many people come to our constituency offices and complain that they have been victims of identity theft and are having a hard time recovering their identity. Sometimes they complain that it costs them a lot of money to recover their identity.

Obviously, because the exception proves the rule, there are exceptions. The bill before us provides for two exemptions that would protect people who create false documents for secret government operations, as well as public servants—law enforcement officers—who create and use secret identities in carrying out their duties, from court action for identity fraud.

Identity theft is a very worrisome problem. According to Public Safety Canada, identity theft is now one of the fastest-growing crimes in Canada and the United States. In 2004, identity theft cost over $50 billion U.S. Identity theft costs consumers, banks and retailers a lot of money. In 2002, the Canadian Council of Better Business Bureaus estimated that consumers, banks, credit card companies, stores and other businesses lost $2.5 billion to identity theft.

In 2006, the Ontario Provincial Police's PhoneBusters program—an anti-fraud call centre created in January 1993 by the OPP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Competition Bureau—received 7,800 calls from victims of identity theft who declared personal and business losses amounting to over $16 million. However, PhoneBusters recognizes that these statistics do not provide a complete picture of the situation. The organization believes that the number of calls received represents but a small fraction—perhaps 5%—of the actual total. According to PhoneBusters, payment card fraud, which is a major element of identity theft, accounted for 42% of identity theft incidents reported in 2003. According to the RCMP, total losses due to credit card fraud amounted to $200 million in 2003.

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In addition to these financial losses, victims of identity theft suffer damaged credit ratings and compromised personal and financial records.

In a 2003 study, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission reported that victims of identity theft spent an average of $500 million U.S. to recover their identity and restore their credit rating.

According to a 2006 Ipsos Reid poll, one Canadian adult in four—24%, in fact, or about 5.7 million Canadians—said he or she had been a victim of identity theft—4%—or knew someone who had been a victim—20%.

This Civil Code must be dusted off. The offences currently in the Criminal Code were defined for the most part at a time when the traditional concept of “property” applied. The problem with identity theft is that personal information is not considered property. In applying the provisions of the Criminal Code, if it is impossible to establish a direct causal link with an economic loss or another serious injury, it becomes very difficult to prove that someone committed a crime such as identity theft.

Roughly 40 provisions of the current Criminal Code could apply to identity theft. For example, subsection 342(3) of the Criminal Code makes it a criminal offence to possess and traffic in credit or debit cards and related data for the purpose of using them or obtaining services provided by the card issuer.

The provisions on forgery apply to people who knowingly make false documents in order to use them or pass them off as genuine documents.

A person who uses a false document, knowing that it is forged, in order to defraud another person, can be charged with fraud and uttering forged documents.

Offenders who assume a false identity for economic or other gain—for example, to avoid being linked to criminal offences—can be charged with identity theft.

Simple possession and collection of personal information are not crimes under the Criminal Code.

In a letter dated November 21, 2007 to the member for Hochelaga, the Minister of Justice stated that he intended to introduce a bill to amend the Criminal Code in order to solve the problem of identity theft. I stress the word “solve”.

The minister is a bit too enthusiastic. The bill is a step in the right direction. However, the Criminal Code is an unwieldy instrument for fighting identity theft: the rules of evidence are strict. Other measures will have to be put in place to effectively fight identity theft.

The Privacy Commissioner, Jennifer Stoddart, has on several occasions called for amendments to the Criminal Code in order to more effectively fight identity theft, and she also recognizes that this tool is not very effective. She stated,

There is one requirement for Bill C-27: the federal government must work closely with Quebec and the provinces. Once again, the Privacy Commissioner maintains that the real solution to the problem of identity theft lies in civil procedures:

Civil sanctions that are very easy to prove and easy for citizens, for example, to take to small claims courts, which may provide a more easily accessible deterrent to the growing industry of ID theft. This means, of course, that I think the federal government has to work closely with the provinces, because a lot of what happens in terms of ID theft falls within provincial jurisdiction.

The Bloc Québécois recognizes that amending the Criminal Code will not be enough to solve the problem of identity theft. Other measures will have to be put in place by governments: education campaigns—I spoke of these earlier—to reduce victimization in particular; regulations to provide more stringent oversight of how businesses manage, store and dispose of information; and measures to promote greater uniformity and security in the process of issuing and verifying identification documents.

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But this government is incapable of collaborating with the provinces. Some of the solutions for combating identity theft rest with the provinces under the constitutional powers in relation to property and civil rights.

This government seems to be extremely reluctant to collaborate. Examples of this abound. The present Conservative government refused to collaborate with Quebec and the provinces on bringing forward a real plan to assist the forestry and manufacturing industries. The Conservative government rejected a series of unanimous requests by the National Assembly out of hand, requests that included honouring the Kyoto protocol, abandoning its plan for a single securities commission, a plan rejected by all of the provinces except Ontario, abandoning its reform of Parliament and reversing its decision to scrap the court challenges program.

The Conservative government succeeded in upsetting all the provinces with its reform of how the seats in the House of Commons are allocated. Senate reform has upset a majority of provinces. Equalization payment reform has been a bitter pill for Quebec and Ontario and the provinces with offshore oil resources.

So the Conservative government, which should be working with the provinces to combat identity theft, has instead retreated to its corner and made a few changes that are necessary but that have a limited effect on the problem in question.

The government seems to be in more of a hurry to give the impression that it is doing something than in developing a coherent strategy for effectively combating this plague.

And then, before handing the provinces new responsibilities for enforcing the Criminal Code, did it so much as make sure that they had the resources to enforce the new identity theft provisions?

This is the federal government, which is supposed to set an example. Even though it has a sorry record when it comes to managing personal information, it will have to set an example. The federal government is proposing to penalize people who use identification documents such as social insurance cards fraudulently. This is the same government that is not doing enough to protect and strengthen the integrity of social insurance numbers. In June 2006, the Auditor General estimated that there were 2.9 million more social insurance numbers in circulation than the estimated number of Canadians aged 30 and over.

Bill C-27 makes it an offence to falsely represent one’s self to be a peace officer or public officer. In December 2004, the media revealed that the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority had lost control of its uniforms. From January to September 2004, CATSA issued about 75,000 uniform items to its 4,000 or so screeners. Of those items, a total of 1,127 were reported lost or stolen.

Examples of mismanagement of personal information by the federal government abound. The federal government wants the public to believe that it is taking the question of identity theft seriously, but in its own actions it ignores the problem.

The Bloc Québécois supports the amendments to the Criminal Code, but also calls on the federal government to adopt exemplary practices in this area.

(1400)

[Table of Contents]

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Royal Galipeau):

There will be a 10-minute period for questions and comments for the hon. member when the House resumes debate on Bill C-27.

We will now move on to statements by members. The hon. member for Perth—Wellington.

Statements by Members

[Statements by Members]

* * *

[English]

St. Marys Minor Hockey Association

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Gary Schellenberger (Perth—Wellington, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the St. Marys Minor Hockey Association on its 50th anniversary. Recently, the community got together to celebrate this very important milestone.

St. Marys minor hockey has always had strong support from the community, the municipality, the sponsors, and the town employees who maintain the facilities.

Minor hockey in St. Marys is so important to the parents, coaches and, especially, the kids. The players come away with the lessons of hard work and sportsmanship, as well as memories and friendships that last a lifetime.

There is something about an early morning at the rink watching kids play hockey that is uniquely Canadian, no matter where we are in Canada.

Finally, I would like to recognize all those volunteers in St. Marys and across my riding of Perth—Wellington for their tireless efforts in support of all minor sports. They make me proud.

* * *

Great Lakes

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Paul Steckle (Huron—Bruce, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, the Great Lakes provide residents and industry with a source of fresh water. They support a massive commercial fishery, a tourist trade and industry of nearly every form.

Despite their importance, we have neglected the Great Lakes and treated them as a dumping ground, and as a result the health of the lakes is in serious question.

Water levels are down and bacteria levels are up. Beaches are closed during the summer and invasive species are ravaging the ecosystem.

Science tells us that the Great Lakes are facing challenges that, if ignored, will catastrophically impact upon those living in the region.

I am calling upon the government to take action, real action, to halt and reverse this environmental legacy. We need a national policy which seeks to engage governments, cottagers, farmers, businesses and private citizens. We must work to ferret out real solutions to the real problems facing the lakes and the surrounding basin.

Groups like the Point Clark Beach Association and the federations of agriculture each stand ready to assist. They and many others are waiting for this government to act.

* * *

[Translation]

Joé Juneau

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Yvon Lévesque (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, Joé Juneau, a former Montreal Canadiens player who has always led by example, took an active role in helping to create a program to motivate Inuit youth academically by introducing them to hockey in a sport study program.

Building on his popularity, his position as a role model for these young people, and their love of hockey, he quickly turned this program into a success and a source of motivation for the students, whose academic efforts determine whether or not they will be allowed on the ice.

My Bloc Québécois colleagues and I would like to congratulate Joé Juneau on receiving the well-deserved title of personality of the year from La Presse and Radio-Canada.

* * *

[English]

Public Transit

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Dawn Black (New Westminster—Coquitlam, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, several years ago, families in Coquitlam and Port Moody were promised a solution to their transit woes. In 2004, the Evergreen Line was approved to connect our communities with Skytrain, with buses and with each other.

Today, the project is on hold until a $400 million shortfall is filled. In the meantime, ordinary families are without an affordable, sustainable transit system.

We know that investment in public transit helps families get their kids to school and regular folks to work. It is good for business and it is good for the environment.

Last year the Conservative government provided nearly a billion dollars to fund transit in Toronto. Why are families in B.C. left in the cold?

It is time for this government to step up to the plate and fund the Evergreen Line. For too long, Coquitlam and Port Moody have been ignored by this Conservative government. Working families and a sustainable environment must come first.

It is about fairness for B.C. and it is simply common sense.

* * *

Homelessness

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, earlier today a Calgary committee released its 10-year plan to end homelessness. This government recognizes that a safe and stable home is an important first step on the path out of poverty.

That is why we are working with other levels of government, the private sector and community organizations to find local solutions to address local problems.

We appreciate the work of the Calgary committee. Our government wants to continue the fight against homelessness. This government is committed to helping individuals break free from the cycle of homelessness and poverty, and move toward self-sufficiency.

The new homelessness partnering strategy is our plan and it is delivering results.

I would like to recognize today the tremendous innovative work the Calgary committee to end homelessness has undertaken.

This government looks forward to continuing to work with community leaders to ensure that all Canadians receive the care and support they need.

* * *

(1405)

Literacy

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Ruby Dhalla (Brampton—Springdale, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in recognition of the 10th anniversary of Family Literacy Day which was recently celebrated in communities like my own riding of Brampton—Springdale.

Low literacy rates are a fact in Canada: four out of every ten adults in Canada struggle with low literacy. This represents almost nine million people.

Created by the ABC CANADA Literacy Foundation, Family Literacy Day encourages family reading and lifelong learning. The founders of Family Literacy Day, as well as literacy organizations, schools and libraries, deserve recognition for their tireless efforts year-round to assist Canadians with the skills, tools and resources they need to learn and succeed.

The government must stop cutting and start investing in literacy. We, as parliamentarians in this House, must do everything we can to support literacy and literacy programs in Canada.

* * *

Academy Awards

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Blackstrap, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate this year's class of Canadian Academy Award nominees.

Canadian artists are tremendously talented and have excelled in the competition with the best in the world. Through their work, they share our Canadian perspective with audiences abroad, and our country is better for it.

I am pleased to congratulate Ellen Page, Jason Reitman, Sarah Polley, Josh Raskin, Chris Lavis, Maciek Szczerbowski, Craig Berkey, Paul Massey and Jim Erickson on their nominations.

I ask members to join me in my congratulations to them and in wishing them the best of luck on Oscar night.

* * *

[Translation]

United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Marc Lemay (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate once again to this Conservative government the importance of supporting the United Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. While a vote took place in September, it can still adhere to the principles of the declaration.

This is why, this morning, representatives of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador, the Assembly of First Nations of Canada, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Amnesty International, Rights and Democracy, KAIROS and several human rights advocacy organizations hosted an information breakfast on Parliament Hill.

We at the Bloc Québécois have heard their message. We are hoping to see the Conservative government finally adhere to the principles of the United Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples.

* * *

Afghanistan

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Luc Harvey (Louis-Hébert, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Canadians, I wish to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the soldiers who died in Afghanistan.

Our thoughts are with Gunner Jonathan Dion of the 5e régiment d'artillerie légère du Canada who died on December 30, 2007; Warrant Officer Hani Massouh of 2 Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, who died on January 6, 2008; Trooper Richard Renaud of the 12e Régiment blindé du Canada, who died on January 15, 2008; and Corporal Étienne Gonthier, of the 5e Régiment du Génie de Combat, who died on January 23, 2008.

We pay tribute to these brave Canadians. Thanks to their courage and that of their fellow soldiers, Canada is fulfilling with honour the UN-led mission to provide the people of Afghanistan the security they need for a better future.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the mourning families of those whose sacrifice was not made in vain.

* * *

[English]

Human Rights

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Tina Keeper (Churchill, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, this morning MPs gathered at a meeting on Parliament Hill in support of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The meeting was hosted by a group of organizations, including the Assembly of First Nations, Amnesty International Canada, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, the Inuit Circumpolar Council, the Canadian Friends Service Committee, KAIROS and the Native Women's Association of Canada.

Their voices were strong and unanimous in calling on the Government of Canada to fully implement the standards of the declaration adopted by the UN General Assembly on September 13 last year. As members of the House will remember, the declaration was passed by an overwhelming majority vote of 144 to 4, with Canada's Conservative government shamefully voting against rights for indigenous people.

The government must realize Canadians took pride in our reputation in the role we used to have as a human rights champion in the global community. It should take back this role and implement the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples today.

* * *

(1410)

[Translation]

Bloc Québécois

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Jacques Gourde (Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, over the past few weeks, a number of people have told me how tired they are of seeing the Bloc Québécois leader pat himself on the back over the same, old issues.

Quebeckers are fed up with seeing these opportunists treat them as though they were victims. The Bloc leader should admit that his time in Ottawa has been a failure. Even their head office is trying to take back some power by refusing to hold a referendum on separation.

He should also take off his blinders and acknowledge that we have a stronger Quebec and a better Canada with a Conservative government in Ottawa. Yet the Bloc Québécois wants to take us a step backward.

Last week, the Bloc rolled the dice and, with its Monopoly money, proposed a budget that would plunge the country back into deficit.

We simply cannot let the next generation take a step backwards, and we will ensure that our children and grandchildren have a bright future.

The Bloc can continue to deny its powerlessness, but the Quebec nation recognizes that, thanks to the Conservatives, Quebeckers are freeing themselves of this stumbling “bloc”.

* * *

[English]

Citizenship and Immigration

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Olivia Chow (Trinity—Spadina, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, Chhaya Teliawala fell in love with a young man from New Delhi, got married and paid $75 to sponsor her husband. Two and a half years later, her husband finally made it here. She is not alone.

With a backlog of 850,000 applicants, thousands of ordinary Canadian families wait for years to see their parents and other loved ones. What a shame that is. Worse still, there are reports that the department is overcharging millions of applicants and has gouged them over $700 million since 1998. The Liberals caused this mess with deep cuts in overseas offices while increasing application fees, and Conservatives do not seem to care.

Gouging millions from hard-working Canadians is simply unfair. The NDP demands that the minister either refund the money or use it to shorten the wait times to unite families. It is time for leadership.

* * *

[Translation]

Saul Itzhayek

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of Saul Itzhayek, a Canadian citizen and resident of my riding, who has been languishing in an Indian jail for eight months on charges of entering India on an expired visa.

[English]

This is despite having been assured safe passage to retrieve his documents and belongings.

Municipalities in my riding have adopted resolutions calling for his release. Human rights NGOs have taken up his case. The government has pressed Indian authorities at the highest level and a distinguished interfaith delegation has come to Ottawa to press for his release as well.

Through you, Mr. Speaker, I say to the Indian government, as a fellow democracy and Commonwealth country, in the interest of our bilateral relations and having regard to the humanitarian dimension of this case and the anguish of Mr. Itzhayek's family and friends, send him back to Canada. It is the right and necessary thing to do.

* * *

[Translation]

Status of Women

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Nicole Demers (Laval, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, this week marks the 20th anniversary of a very important ruling for women. In the Dr. Morgentaler case, the Supreme Court of Canada decriminalized abortion.

After a tough 20-year battle led by doctors and women's groups, this ruling finally allowed women to take control of their bodies and their pregnancies and to have access to safe abortion. Since then, they have had the freedom to choose.

That is why any threat by this Conservative government to limit the right to abortion is a direct affront to women's rights. Bill C-484 by the hon. Conservative member for Edmonton—Sherwood Park opens the door to criminalizing abortion.

We are against taking any steps backward. Abortion is a vested right ensuring the well-being and equality of women.

* * *

[English]

Diabetes

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Lloyd St. Amand (Brant, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, Lynda Stockton is a devoted mother of two children who have diabetes.

Ms. Stockton is justifiably of the view that a Canada-wide policy should be implemented to ensure that the health needs of diabetic children are met when they attend school. Examples of the lack of awareness by some educators and school boards are frightening and obviously very worrisome for children and their parents.

I am calling on the Minister of Health to mandate a national policy consistent with the safeguards recommended by the Canadian Diabetes Association, a copy of which I have sent to the minister.

Kudos to Lynda Stockton for her leadership on this issue and her sensitivity to the needs of all children who live with diabetes. Canada's children deserve to attend school knowing that their health needs will be safely and properly accommodated.

* * *

(1415)

Justice

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Mike Wallace (Burlington, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to remind Canadians that this government is taking action on tackling violent crime. Bill C-2 is our comprehensive legislation that will finally get tough on crime.

The proposed bill will impose mandatory jail time for serious gun crimes. It will toughen bail rules when a gun is used to commit crimes. It will increase the age of protection. The bill cracks down on drug-impaired driving. It ensures that dangerous offenders face tougher sentencing.

Liberals pretend to support this legislation, but the Liberal-dominated Senate is stalling, delaying and obstructing this much needed legislation, and the Liberal leader does nothing. It is time he got up off his hands and stood up for something. He does not listen to the Liberal Premier of Ontario. He does not listen to the people of Canada. His concerns about crime are all smoke and mirrors. It simply—

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

The hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

* * *

[Translation]

Alzheimer Awareness Month

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Louise Thibault (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, Ind.):

Mr. Speaker, January is Alzheimer Awareness Month, and I would like to focus attention on the realities facing the friends and relatives of people suffering from this devastating disease.

Forgetting is a terrible thing, but being forgotten—suddenly realizing that we are no longer part of the memory of a person who has shared much of our life, a person who made us who we are—is even more difficult to cope with. When it is no longer possible to hear echoes of shared joys and pains in quiet moments together, it is hard not to feel unfairly rejected.

Day by day, as our loved ones slowly distance themselves, they begin to live lives in which we no longer play a role. As doors close day after day, the sense of loss deepens.

I would like to thank those who have been working so hard to understand Alzheimer's disease so that one day, it can be treated. They offer hope to those confronting the loneliness, confusion and uncertainty that accompany this terrible disease.

ORAL QUESTIONS

[Oral Questions]

* * *

[English]

Afghanistan

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister allowed his government to mislead Canadians on an issue as serious as torture. Conservatives even blame the military for their own failure of leadership. This is completely unacceptable.

Why will the Prime Minister not do what he should have done months ago: stop blaming others and take responsibility for his own decisions?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the hon. member is even talking about. We have one credible allegation against Afghan authorities in terms of prisoner abuse, an allegation that this government revealed publicly in the House of Commons.

In two years there have been all these attempts to write the Canadian Abu Ghraib story. The fact is there has not been a single credible allegation made against any member of the Canadian military, and that is something of which we are proud.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, we have the utmost respect for the judgment of our officers in the field. The issue of whether or not to transfer detainees to a system where they might be tortured does raise questions of operational security, but it is first and foremost a human rights issue. It is a matter of principle, and responsibility for this ultimately rests with the Prime Minister himself.

Will he promise that, from now on, he will make such decisions himself and be accountable for them in this House and to Canadians?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, that is the reason this government created a new agreement with the Afghan government to monitor our prisoners and meet Canada's international obligations.

As we said, we have one credible allegation of abuse of a Taliban prisoner, an allegation this government revealed in the House, but there have been no allegations against Canadian soldiers in two years, and we are very proud of that.

(1420)

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, when will the Prime Minister realize the buck stops with him on the leadership of this mission? He cannot scapegoat the military. This is completely unacceptable.

The Prime Minister announced the transfers would resume at some unknown time. What steps is he putting in place then? Does he even have a concrete plan to ensure that when the transfers resume, the torture will stop?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we have a prisoner transfer agreement with the Afghan government that allows us to fulfill our international responsibilities to do surveillance, to ensure that there are inquiries when there are problems and that action is taken. That is what has happened.

The government has not attempted to scapegoat the military for anything. There is nothing to scapegoat the military for. Members of the military are doing a tough and dangerous job in Afghanistan. They are doing it in our interests. They are doing it with a United Nations mandate and in the interests of the Afghan people. They deserve to be congratulated for everything they have done.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister said that he accepted the broad recommendations of the Manley report. I wonder whether he accepted the scathing criticism of his leadership.

The Afghan mission cannot be delegated to an assistant deputy minister, no matter how hard he works. When will the Prime Minister address this failure? Specifically, when will he grab hold of the mission, show prime ministerial leadership and end the departmental dysfunction that has plagued this mission on his watch?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, the report of the former deputy prime minister was a strong and balanced report. It does lay out some criticisms of all the governments that have handled this mission. However, it does point out also that on all these various things governments have been making progress under very difficult circumstances.

Obviously the prime minister is ultimately responsible for everything in the government. However, let me assure the hon. member that not only ministers and officials at all levels, but literally hundreds of thousands of Canadian government officials and military people are involved in making this mission a success. That is what we are going to continue doing.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, the Manley report criticized the Prime Minister's lack of leadership on Afghanistan. We have noticed the same thing from the start: ministers contradicting each other, confused messages, management chaos.

What specific changes in managing the mission will the Prime Minister propose in order to respond to these specific criticisms of his lack of leadership?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, the Manley report is a very balanced report that recognizes not only the difficulties of the mission, but also the progress that has been made on many fronts.

I can assure the hon. member that the government intends to continue working alongside its allies to achieve success in Afghanistan.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, the government has already developed new strategies for getting around the problem of transferring Afghan detainees. In some cases, detainees captured by the Canadian army will be held at the base in Kandahar, and in other cases, the Canadian army will let the Afghan army capture the Taliban. The Canadian army has officially stopped transferring detainees to Afghan authorities on suspicion of torture.

Will the Prime Minister admit that by allowing the Afghan army, instead of the Canadian army, to capture the Taliban, the result is the same, in other words, the risk of torture remains and Canada is washing its hands of it?

(1425)

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on the details of this report. I can say that this report states that I had a telephone conversation with General Hillier last week, when in reality, I have not received any telephone calls from General Hillier in the past few weeks.

One must be careful in assuming that these anonymous allegations are true. We are training the Afghan forces to assume responsibility for their country, as the Bloc asked.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, they are not being trained; they are being allowed to do as they please. The Canadian government has suspended the transfer of detainees to Afghan authorities because of a risk of torture, which goes against the Geneva convention. The government said so; it cannot deny it now.

Does the Prime Minister realize that by making the Afghan authorities responsible for the detainees, under the pretext that he is showing them how to handle detainees, he is being complicit and is violating the Geneva convention since there is a risk of torture because of the suspension of official transfers and leaving the authorities unchecked?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, obviously as the Afghan forces assume more and more responsibility in the mission in their country, they are also taking responsibility for various aspects of the mission. That is the opposite of what the leader of the Bloc said.

The Canadian Forces have always respected their international obligations under the agreement we signed with the Government of Afghanistan. We should be congratulating the Canadian Forces for their performance in fulfilling these obligations.

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Vivian Barbot (Papineau, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to see the reaction of the Conservative government regarding the transfer of Afghan prisoners. First, they did not know. Then they knew, but they were hiding it. Now, we learn from a government lawyer, apparently acting on his own, that there have been no transfers of prisoners since November 5.

Just like what happened in the United States with Bush's 534 lies about Iraq, is this not a campaign to fool Quebeckers and Canadians about the true fate of Afghan prisoners?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, that is untrue. The government never hid information about the mission in Afghanistan. The Minister of Foreign Affairs provided information to the House of Commons about an allegation against an Afghan prison representative. We provided this information immediately.

It is true to say that the processes and agreements are working. They are working for us, for the protection of the armed forces and for the prisoners.

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Vivian Barbot (Papineau, BQ):

Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Foreign Affairs stand up and tell the House that the Canadian armed forces have never, since transfers stopped, been complicit in letting the Afghans take prisoners who risked being tortured? Can he guarantee that the spirit and the letter of the Geneva convention have been respected at all times and will continue to be respected?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Maxime Bernier (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, as I told the House yesterday, when we uncovered a probable instance of abuse, we informed the House. We took action. My department's officials took action and the Afghan government took action.

In fact, the Afghan government is currently conducting a thorough investigation of this case. We have an agreement that is working, and the armed forces have the discretion to apply this agreement in the field.

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, Canadians know that the British have 127 detainees, that the Dutch have 59 people that they have captured. We know how many the Americans have. How do we know these things? Because their governments make it public.

What does our government do? It hides the information. The Prime Minister says that it would imperil national security. Is he saying that the British, the Dutch and the Americans are imperilling their national security by releasing information about their detainees to their public? Is that what he is saying?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I guess what it means is that Canada makes its own policies.

These are operational matters of the Canadian military. If the Canadian military choose to reveal that information, that is their decision, but the government certainly is not going to reveal it on their behalf.

(1430)

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, it is an outrage that the government will not come clean and tell the truth about what is going on in Afghanistan when the governments of other countries will do so for their citizens.

For example, we learned that the detainees are being kept on the Kandahar airfield, not from our government but from anonymous news sources through newspapers. It is simply not acceptable.

The Prime Minister said that he supported the Manley report. Is that so? Here is what it says. It wants a communication strategy of open engagement with Canadians.

When can Canadians expect the Prime Minister to start to be truthful about what is going on?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the NDP could do better than rely simply on anonymous sources to ask his question. For instance, these anonymous sources say that I had a telephone conversation on this subject with General Hillier last week. In fact, I have not had any telephone conversation in the last several weeks with General Hillier.

I did talk to General Hillier last week, not about prisoners, but about the Manley report and also to wish him well on the well-deserved vacation with his wife in the Caribbean. He deserves it.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to take a moment to congratulate you--

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

The hon. member for Bourassa.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, he seems to be digging himself deeper and deeper into the hole. We now know why we saw a different version last Friday, when his director of communications said she was mistaken.

General Hillier called the Prime Minister because, with good reason, his own Minister of National Defence is not there to protect the troops. Once again, our soldiers have become the scapegoats in this affair. It is time to assume some responsibility and stop blaming others.

First of all, have we had any prisoners since November 5? Second, why did the Prime Minister fail to tell Canadians that his government prefers that our soldiers circumvent the detainee agreement and allow the Afghan national army take care of its own prisoners?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada has not changed its position. I have not changed my position.

[English]

There is a change, however, when it comes to the position of the member opposite. He now appears to be quite interested in protecting the reputation and well-being of General Hillier, but it was just a short time ago that he said, “I never thought I would see the day when the general and the Canadian army would be a prop for the Government of Canada”. That is what he said.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, from Mr. Scapegoat we deserve better.

Our military men and women put their lives on the line every day for our country but Canadians cannot get the truth from the government. That is the issue.

Yesterday the Prime Minister said the transfer would resume, but he gave no details. Maybe he could tell Canadians, is it now the practice of Canada to sidestep the transfer agreement by allowing the Afghan national army to take prisoners directly and avoid transfers?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, quite simply, no, that is not the practice of the Canadian army. Again, these decisions are made at an operational level within the chain of command in Afghanistan. We, of course, set the policy. The government relies heavily on and supports the decisions made by generals and those in command in Afghanistan.

What we will not do is take lessons on patriotism or military operations from a man who made up his mind about the mission, went to Afghanistan and hung out at Tim Hortons.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

Order. If members want to carry on discussions at Tim Hortons, go ahead. We do not need them in here. We need some order. The member for Kitchener Centre now has the floor. We have moved on.

* * *

National Defence

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, leadership requires honesty. Yesterday, the Prime Minister stated that the medium lift helicopters and the unmanned aerial drones were already on order.

If the Prime Minister is telling the truth to Canadians, will he table here in the House today the contracts that the government has already signed to obtain the equipment?

(1435) &